A Question...

[Livin_the_MASS]

I will tell you this LJ, I notice you used the word PROVE!

What did God say to Thomas after He PROVED to him that He had risen, "Blessed are those who do not see and believe."

Open your heart a little more let God have complete control. He will lead you, pray for faith, and He will give it to you.

Actually it is pretty simple Christ over 2000 year ago founded the Catholic (meaning universial) Church gave His Church the keys to heaven and a promise that the gates of Hell can't prevail against it.

When Peter confessed Jesus as the Christ, what did Jesus say? "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father in heaven."

Ask the Holy Spirit, He will lead you, you have to have an open heart and submit yourself to His Holy Will.

Somethings you might not get right off so then say, "Lord I believe help my unbelief."

You can't make religion, a political pole of some sort.

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

no Jason, don't stray from the topic.

you can prove many things through the Bible and your catholic documents...prove this.

find backing for it.

I have faith, and it grows as the Lord wants it to...and I'm thankful for that.

don't try to change it up on me to make this a foundation of the church debate again...I'm asking about the saints.

much love Jason,

God bless.

ps...here's a list from blueletterbible.org of many of the uses of the word saints and their affiliated meanings.

[quote]Believers  Act 5:14; 1Ti 4:12
Beloved of God  Rom 1:7
Beloved brethren  1Cr 15:58; Jam 2:5
Blessed of the Lord  Gen 24:31; 26:29
Blessed of the Father  Mat 25:34
Brethren  Mat 23:8; Act 12:17
Brethren of Christ  Luk 8:21; Jhn 20:17
Called of Jesus Christ  Rom 1:6
Children of the Lord  Deu 14:1
Children of God  Jhn 11:52; 1Jo 3:10
Children of the Living God  Rom 9:26
Children of the Father  Mat 5:45
Children of the Highest  Luk 6:35
Children of Abraham  Gal 3:7
Children of Jacob  Psa 105:6
Children of promise  Rom 9:8; Gal 4:28
Children of the free-woman  Gal 4:31
Children of the kingdom  Mat 13:38
Children of Zion  Psa 149:2; Joe 2:23
Children of the bride-chamber  Mat 9:15
Children of light  Luk 16:8; Eph 5:8; 1Th 5:5
Children of the day  1Th 5:5
Children of the resurrection  Luk 20:36
Chosen generation  1Pe 2:9
Chosen ones  1Ch 16:13
Chosen vessels  Act 9:15
Christians  Act 11:26; 26:28
Dear children  Eph 5:1
Disciples of Christ  Jhn 8:31; 15:8
Elect of God  Col 3:12; Tts 1:1
Epistles of Christ  2Cr 3:3
Excellent, The  Psa 16:3
Faithful brethren in Christ  Col 1:2
Faithful, The  Psa 12:1
Faithful of the land  Psa 101:6
Fellow-citizens with the saints  Eph 2:19
Fellow-heirs  Eph 3:6
Fellow-servants  Rev 6:11
Friends of God  2Ch 20:7; Jam 2:23
Friends of Christ  Jhn 15:15
Godly, The  Psa 4:3; 2Pe 2:9
Heirs of God  Rom 8:17; Gal 4:7
Heirs of the grace of life  1Pe 3:7
Heirs of the kingdom  Jam 2:5
Heirs of promise  Hbr 6:17; Gal 3:29
Heirs of salvation  Hbr 1:14
Holy brethren  1Th 5:27; Hbr 3:1
Holy nation  Exd 19:6; 1Pe 2:9
Holy people  Deu 26:19; Isa 62:12
Holy priesthood  1Pe 2:5
Joint-heirs with Christ  Rom 8:17
Just, The  Hab 2:4
Kings and priests to God  Rev 1:6
Kingdom of priests  Exd 19:6
Lambs  Isa 40:11; Jhn 21:15
Lights of the world  Mat 5:14
Little children  Jhn 13:33; 1Jo 2:1
Lively stones  1Pe 2:5
Members of Christ  1Cr 6:15; Eph 5:30
Men of God  Deu 33:1; 1Ti 6:11; 2Ti 3:17
Obedient children  1Pe 1:14
Peculiar people  Deu 14:2; Tts 2:14; 1Pe 2:9
Peculiar treasure  Exd 19:5; Psa 135:4
People of God  Hbr 4:9; 1Pe 2:10
People near to God  Psa 148:14
People saved by the Lord  Deu 33:29
Pillars in the temple of God  Rev 3:12
Ransomed of the Lord  Isa 35:10
Redeemed of the Lord  Isa 51:11
Royal priesthood  1Pe 2:9
Salt of the earth  Mat 5:13
Servants of Christ  1Cr 7:22; Eph 6:6
Servants of righteousness  Rom 6:18
Sheep of Christ  Jhn 10:1-16; 21:16
Sojourners with God  Lev 25:23; Psa 39:12
Sons of God  Jhn 1:12; Phl 2:15; 1Jo 3:1,2
The Lord's freemen  1Cr 7:22
Trees of righteousness  Isa 61:3
Vessels to honour  2Ti 2:21
Vessels of mercy  Rom 9:23
Witnesses for God  Isa 44:8[/quote]

note that nowhere does it list the Roman Catholic definition of the word.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Were not perfect down here, we strive for perfection, but it does not come until we are in Heaven at the beatific vision. (if we are blessed to see it!)

I wasn't dodging the question, I was just trying to help.



[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp"]SAINTS!!!!!![/url]

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

neither your post, nor the article clarify anything in accordance with what is written in the Bible.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 24 2004, 04:14 PM']neither your post, nor the article clarify anything in accordance with what is written in the Bible.[/quote]
Yes I did answer your question, the problem is LJ that your using the wrong bible.

There is only One Bible your bible is missing books and all kinds of other stuff.

Plus you have to read Sacred Scripture as a whole. You don't seem to be doing that!

You asked me to define Saints so I did, in more than one way, read the whole thread!

Only the Catholic Chruch has the authority to proclaim someone a Saint. The reason why you don't understand is because you have a problem with authority.
Do you know what you say about the Catholic Church you say to Christ Himself!

Want proof read about St. Paul walking on the road, (a persecutor of the Chuch), He was killing those in the Church and what did He (Jesus) say "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting Me?"
"What ever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto Me"
St. Paul was hurting his brothers and sister in the Church and Jesus asked why he was doing it to Him.

Until you can submit to the authority of the Catholic Church given BY CHRIST HIMSELF, you will go in circles.

I say this all out of love brother! I hope the best for you, your in my prayers,
God Bless,
Jason

[the lumberjack]

I have no problem with authority...you seem to have a problem with the Bible...

it is because your bible says "holy ones"...which is a definition of saints...but not how its used throughout the whole Bible.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 24 2004, 06:24 PM'] I have no problem with authority...you seem to have a problem with the Bible...

it is because your bible says "holy ones"...which is a definition of saints...but not how its used throughout the whole Bible. [/quote]
Paragraph 5. THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS

946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"477 The communion of saints is the Church.

947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others.... We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head.... Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."478 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."479

948 The term "communion of saints" therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and "among holy persons (sancti).

"Sancta sancti's! ("God's holy gifts for God's holy people") is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. the faithful (sancta) are fed by Christ's holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.

I. COMMUNION IN SPIRITUAL GOODS

949 In the primitive community of Jerusalem, the disciples "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers."480
Communion in the faith. the faith of the faithful is the faith of the Church, received from the apostles. Faith is a treasure of life which is enriched by being shared.

950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. the communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments.... the name 'communion' can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God.... But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."481

951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit "distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank" for the building up of the Church.482 Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."483

952 "They had everything in common."484 "Everything the true Christian has is to be regarded as a good possessed in common with everyone else. All Christians should be ready and eager to come to the help of the needy . . . and of their neighbors in want."485 A Christian is a steward of the Lord's goods.486

953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."487 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."488 "Charity does not insist on its own way."489 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

954 The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':490

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbours, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.491

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."492

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."493

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.494



I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.495

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"496:

We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!497

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."498 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."499

IN BRIEF

960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG # 30).

[the lumberjack]

I see the burning bush, and that last post was beating all around it brother....if I might call you that.

that still goes back to the "saints" of the catholic church praying for us...when the Bible CLEARLY points out that all that live for Christ are saints...

go back to saying that the Catholic Church calls us "holy ones"... just make sure that you look at the whole list of how and when the word saint or saints is used throughout the WHOLE Bible.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 24 2004, 10:38 PM']I see the burning bush, and that last post was beating all around it brother....if I might call you that.

that still goes back to the "saints" of the catholic church praying for us...when the Bible CLEARLY points out that all that live for Christ are saints...

go back to saying that the Catholic Church calls us "holy ones"...  just make sure that you look at the whole list of how and when the word saint or saints is used throughout the WHOLE Bible.[/quote]
[b]960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).[/b]

This does not explain your question.

Be more clear what are you asking?

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

I'm asking what is the difference from the SAINTS the BIBLE speaks of to the saints the Catholic Church prays to?

you're using Catholic Church materials to try to say one thing, when it appears the Bible is saying another...Catholic Church translation or not.

if it were just a couple occurances, I'd more than gladly concede to you, but its MANY occurances in which WE are called saints...the incense in Revelation is the prayer of the saints...all of us.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]you're using Catholic Church materials to try to say one thing, when it appears the Bible is saying another...Catholic Church translation or not.[/quote]

Show me where you see this?
I will explain, the CCC and Sacred Scripture do not contradict each other. Show me the verses. Please and Thank you!

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

go to that LONG list that I posted, and you quoted, for verses and the correlated meaning to each example given...

the word SAINT is in each verse, NT or OT.

thanks and God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 02:03 AM']go to that LONG list that I posted, and you quoted, for verses and the correlated meaning to each example given...

the word SAINT is in each verse, NT or OT.

thanks and God bless.[/quote]
I see no contradiction whatsoever. So there are different words what's your point?

Jesus has more than one name in Scripture does He not?

I Am
The Messiah
The Lamb of God
Christ (the anoited)
Lord of Hosts
The Bread of Life
The Resurrection
King of kings and Lord of lords
King of the Jews
Son of Man
"Amen, amen, I say to you, [b]I am the gate[/b] for the sheep"
"[b]I am the good shepherd[/b]. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."


Here is a something on Sacred Scripture

CCC
Article 3

SACRED SCRIPTURE


I. Christ - The Unique Word of Sacred Scripture

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.66

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God".67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68




When you read Sacred Scripture you have to read it in the "four fold" sense.


CCC
III. The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

The senses of Scripture

[b]115 According to an ancient tradition, [u]one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses.[/u] the profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.[/b]

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

[b]117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. the allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. the moral sense. the events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85
3. the anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86[/b]

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

119 [b]"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, [u]all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88[/b][/u]

But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89

[b]Please do not skim over this read it all it explains how Sacred Scripture is to be read. [/b]

God Bless brother
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

bump

[Livin_the_MASS]

No reply LJ?