A Question...

[the lumberjack]

first, I ask you to keep the cutting and pasting of documents to an absolute minimum.

now, some facts:

God knows who will be born. God knows who will die. God knows who will live to live a life for Him. Also, He knows who won't. this DOES NOT mean that He is making one person choose one way or the other, it just means that He knows.


so where do the people that lived for God go when they die?

under the New Covenant in Christ, where do they go when they die?

I ask you this because you say that there are saints in heaven, that you pray to, who intercede for you.

now, if this is so, where are ALL the other saints? the ones that Paul spoke of in his epistles?

[quote]Romans 8
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose...

Ephesians 6
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Romans 1
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ[/quote]

the list is a long one of scriptures that refers to Christians as saints...

here is the question:

if you say that your catholic saints are in heaven, then where are the saints that the bible speaks of?

if you say they are in heaven, then all the saints must be in heaven.

[b]if you say they are all in heaven, then why is there a second coming and the resurrection?[/b]

if you say that some are in heaven and some still "asleep"...then who makes the distinction of who is in heaven and not? the catholic church? thats not biblical...only God decides who gos to heaven.

if you say they are not in heaven, then how can they make intercession for us, if they are indeed asleep in the grave?

if you say they are in paradise with Jesus, then you say that Jesus is not seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven, and if you say that the Father is in paradise, then you say He is not in heaven...and that heaven is currently "Vacant".

I await your response.

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]God knows who will be born. God knows who will die. God knows who will live to live a life for Him. Also, He knows who won't. this DOES NOT mean that He is making one person choose one way or the other, it just means that He knows.[/quote]

Agreed


[quote]so where do the people that lived for God go when they die?[/quote]

God is Judge and only is God the Judge of all mankind

[b][u]Sainthood goes like this:[/b][/u]
Saints are people of heroic virtue!

That means they take all their sufferings uniting them to Christ's sufferings,accepting them as God's Will, without wavering in their faith or their trust in God.

They leave all things to His Provendential Care. Complete abandonment to His Holy Will!

[b]The Church does not choose who lives a heroic life of virtue, each individual must make his or her own choice.[/b] The Church just recognizes that this person's life is worthy of imitation.

[b][u]We make the choice of Heaven or Hell, The Church exercies the authority to acknowlege the state of ones life to be holy.[/u][/b]

[quote]if you say that your catholic saints are in heaven, then where are the saints that the bible speaks of?

if you say they are in heaven, then all the saints must be in heaven.[/quote]

[b]Matthew 27:51-53[/b]

"And behold the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, [b]tombs were opened, and bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. [u]And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many."[/b][/u]

[quote]if you say they are in paradise with Jesus, then you say that Jesus is not seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven, and if you say that the Father is in paradise, then you say He is not in heaven...and that heaven is currently "Vacant".[/quote]

Not sure I get you here?

The quote I give from Matthew explains it clearly, [b]After the resurrection,[/b] THEY (the saints) ENTERED THE HOLY CITY AND APPEARED TO MANY!

So in short yes the saints are in heaven with the angels giving glory to God. The Catholic Church has the authority to declare someone a saint for the Catholic Church has the "key's to heaven". (The Sacraments)

This is our exile down here, our desert, we are tempted, tested, we must make the final decisons.

God knows the heart of man. He is the Judge when we die. Now He has given the Catholic Church the authority on earth to forgive sins or retain sins. This is done through the priest. It is actually Christ doing the work, the priest is just a servant.

I tell you this because you seem to seperate Christ from things in His Church. When actually He is the One doing all the work.

God Bless
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]Eph 6: 18-20[/b]

"With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, [b]be watchful with all perseverance and [u]supplication for all the holy ones [/b][/u]

and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel

for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must."


[quote]I ask you this because you say that there are saints in heaven, that you pray to, who intercede for you.

now, if this is so, where are ALL the other saints? the ones that Paul spoke of in his epistles?[/quote]

In the book of Wisdom:

[b]"But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.[/b]

They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction

and their going forth from us, utter destruction.[b] But they are in peace.[/b]

For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality;

[b]Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself.[/b]

As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.

[b]In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble;

[u]They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever.[/b][/u]

[b][i][u]Those who trust in him shall understand truth, and the faithful shall abide with him in love: Because grace and mercy are with his holy ones, and his care is with the elect.[/u][/i][/b]

But the wicked shall receive a punishment to match their thoughts, since they neglected justice and forsook the LORD.

For he who despises wisdom and instruction is doomed. Vain is their hope, fruitless are their labors, and worthless are their works.

Their wives are foolish and their children wicked; accursed is their brood.

Yes, blessed is she who, childless and undefiled, knew not transgression of the marriage bed; she shall bear fruit at the visitation of souls."

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

but throughout the WHOLE new testament, the believers in Christ are called saints.

so according to you, we are all heroes of the faith, right?

and if we are not all saints, is God a liar?

or are there little saints and big Saints?

and if so, could you point out in the BIBLE where an example is given?

thanks, God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]so according to you, we are all heroes of the faith, right?[/quote]

No, because St. Paul wrote that we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Everyday is a conversion, we make a choice to follow God or not to follow Him. Thats why we pray for final perseverance!

[quote]and if we are not all saints, is God a liar?[/quote]

Of course not, Scripture says He can't be deceived, nor can He deceive, Jesus said He was The Way, The TRUTH, and The life. God cannot lie!

[quote]or are there little saints and big Saints?[/quote]

No, We are all made into the image and likeness of God. You know when the rich man came up to Jesus and said "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Right before he asks Jesus this question, He says "Good Teacher what must I......"
Jesus replies, "Why do you call me good? Who is good but God alone".
Now Jesus said He is The WAY, The TRUTH, and The LIFE, we are to imitate Him in everything. Jesus was setting an example here. When you or I do something good it is God working through us and He gets the credit for it. For "Who is good but God alone." So God is actually glorifed through His saints because he took there weaknesses and made them strong.

God Bless
Jason

Edited April 20, 2004 by Jason

[the lumberjack]

so then why do you call the other brothers in Christ who have died before us saints, if the Bible points out that all Christians are, in fact, saints?

each day is a new conversion?

does this mean that we are getting saved anew every day? does this mean that Christ is dying for us daily?

are we not called to deny ourselves, put the flesh to death, let Him be the Lord of our lives, take up our cross, and follow Him?

and if we follow Him, doesn't that mean that we're CONSTANTLY carrying our cross? not putting down at night, and picking it up in the morning?

for if we make the decision of making Christ our Lord every day, what assurance AT ALL do YOU have of salvation? seems like you would be walking a very iffy road, not knowing whether or not you'd ever REALLY go to heaven.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]so then why do you call the other brothers in Christ who have died before us saints, if the Bible points out that all Christians are, in fact, saints?[/quote]

Where do you get this from? Not all Christians in the New Testament are called saints, rather they are called disciples who followed Jesus. A saint is someone who has died and that the Church has studied to claim his life holy and worthy of imitation.


[quote]does this mean that we are getting saved anew every day? does this mean that Christ is dying for us daily?[/quote]

Christ died once for all you know that. But everyday we make choices. Not everyone who crys out Lord, Lord, will be saved. You left out also that "Unless one takes up his cross [b]daily[/b] and follow me....." Any day we can make the choice to fall from the grace of God.


[quote]and if we follow Him, doesn't that mean that we're CONSTANTLY carrying our cross? not putting down at night, and picking it up in the morning?[/quote]

Ask yourself, did God not give you a free will. Of course you can make the choice not to carry your cross and follow him. Just like Adam and Eve used there free will and chose not to listen to God. They fell from His grace thus we have the fall of mankind. That is why Jesus came suffered, died, and rose from the dead. Gave us His Church and gave us the Sacraments, to bring us back to the relationship with God. The most important Sacrament is the Holy Eucharist, because it is God Himself uniting to man, you can have no closer relationship on this earth like that of Holy Communion.

[quote]for if we make the decision of making Christ our Lord every day, what assurance AT ALL do YOU have of salvation? seems like you would be walking a very iffy road, not knowing whether or not you'd ever REALLY go to heaven. [/quote]

The road that leads to eternal life is narrow and constricted and few make it. That's were belief in the Eucharist is key. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood you do not have life within you." Now don't forget Jesus is Truth so take these words to heart, "FOR MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD AND MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK."

Jesus said apart from Him we can do [b]nothing[/b] that is why He told the apostles to abide in His love. In John 6, He says "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood remains in me and I in him. John 15, "Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on it's own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me."

So ya, I guess you could say apart from Jesus the way to heaven is very iffy! I won't go into the Theology of the Eucharist yet. I will give you this for now.

God Bless You
Jason

Edited April 20, 2004 by Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

bump

[Livin_the_MASS]

No more questions LJ?

[the lumberjack]

well, I've got a post in progress, but you went from talking about what I was asking about...to the host.

how and why did you do that? I'm not asking nor am I talking about the host.

I'm talking about the saints that the BIBLE speaks of...

go to [url="http://www.blueletterbible.org"]blueletterbible.org[/url] and do a word search for saint...and see just how many times it comes up in the NT alone.

I'll be back.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I know you said to keep the posting down but read this please


"WHAT IS A SAINT?

What is a saint? Many people upon hearing this curious word "saint" cringe. To them, saints are one-dimensional, sometimes even vaguely creepy people who are uncomfortable to be around. They have one track minds and are other than human. They exist on a different plane where they have no real appreciation of how ordinary folk live. Saints are rigid creatures who don’t know the agonies and eccentricities of life. Those who feel this way about sainthood are likely to say, with a hint of disdain – and pride – "I’m NO saint!"

Then there are people who think the saints exist in a type of rosy glow. They exude sentiment from holy cards and would be quite at home with sweet Hallmark greetings. To this audience the saints are always kind and gentle and never have a rotten thought. Supermen, but elevated even higher, the saints are miraculous figures whose feet never really touched the ground. People who have this image probably also think of our Lord in rosy glows – eerily adrogynous, with stylized features and a perfect complexion. This is the Jesus whom Dorothy Sayers describes (in the wonderful The Whimsical Christian) as someone whom we have declared and "certified 'meek and mild’…a fitting household pet for pale curates and pious old ladies."

If you perceive sainthood as an undesirable attribute or think of saints as one-dimensional shadows of real human beings, you probably have never met cantankerous Saint Jerome or firebrand Saint John the Baptist, anxious and tormented Padre Pio or wry Saint Teresa, joke-cracking bishop Saint Laurence O’Toole or achingly grateful Saint Mary Magdalen, brainy and poetic Saint Thomas Aquinas or indomitable Saint Catherine of Siena, moody Saint Augustine, playful Saint Therese or mad Saint John of God. Perhaps you did not know that among the saints there are people who, rather than being meek and mild, are rather ferocious. Among the saints there are also great wits, addle-brained dreamers, foolish oafs, mischievous curmudgeons, radical crusaders, shy artists, and passionate poets. There are housewives and kings, tax agents and lawyers (yes, lawyers!), bakers and brigands.

[b]But in this diverse bunch of souls for Christ, there are common characteristics. All the saints share certain virtues - a yearning for holiness, an intimacy with God, perseverance in prayer, humility of heart, and love of their fellow men and women, that is, charity of soul.[/b]
(Bold added by me)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For all the Secret Tzaddiks and Undercover Saints:

SAINTS

It is the glory
of the Church
that it cannot
name
all the saints.

It is the glory
of the Church
that it cannot
remember
all the saints.

It is the glory
of Christ
that we cannot
count
all the saints.

Saints are found
behind all the rocks
of the
mountain.

Saints are found
among the trees
of the wood.

Saints hide in
blossoms,
ride birds, top clouds;
follow passages
under the
earth.

They sweep the floors
of the universe.

They take out the garbage
of the cosmos.

The seeds they scatter
soften and green the hillsides;

leaves open
their hands;
joyful beasts
wander among trees,
cling to grassy
slopes.

The faithful
cling to the roots
of the saints,
growing up
from the ground.

* * *
Matthew R. Brown"

Does this help?
God Bless
Jason

[cmotherofpirl]

The word saint is used in different ways by different people in the NT.

[Livin_the_MASS]

LJ,

Tell me what you have a hard time understand in Our Catholic Faith?

God Bless You
Jason

[the lumberjack]

if you can first prove to me that YOUR saints are the ONLY ones that the Bible speaks of, that will be a small start...then we can move on to the rest of it.

and BELIEVE ME, there is a BIG "the rest of it"

God bless.

[quote]Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the [b]saints[/b] which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;[/quote]

and this is Ephesians alone...

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]if you can first prove to me that YOUR saints are the ONLY ones that the Bible speaks of, that will be a small start...then we can move on to the rest of it.[/quote]

So are you saying you have a problem with St. Paul calling them saints, using the word saints?

In the NAB the word holy ones is in place of saint here.

What are you questioning here be more clear?

God Bless
Jason