Justification And Damnation

[megamattman1]

jesussaves has been bringing up the issue of works and faith again. i realize most Catholics here would say we are saved from eternal damnation by our grace-filled good works. I would like a clarification from a knowledgable Catholic from a good source if possible as to if this is explicitly in the cathechism that we must be justified to be saved from damnation in a final judgement? I will elaborate on my why I ask my question.


First, a few examples to move on to what is taught by the Church to avoid talking to much about the bible.

n a recent thread Ironmonk mentioned how Jesus told the inquiering man that to be saved, he must keep the commandments. But the protestant would argue against that in that at the end of the situation his disciples asked who could do this impossible demand. Then Jesus said that with men it is impossible but with men, but with God all things are possible. Catholics can say they have grace-filled works. It's arguable.

[quote]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.  Romans 4 [/quote]

This isn't even talking abot works of the Jewish law, just works. (though considering the fact that the bible talks so much about the futility of the Jewish law, it is understandable that one might parallel Catholic customs to that) It's arguably pretty clear against James 2.

It depends on how you reconcile these ideas. Mainly James 2 and Romans 4. Frankly I don't know how anyone can say they know what the bible means. I think you can make the bible say whatever you want.

There would seem to be another authority such as the Church to say what it means. But I do admit that is a weak argument as Aquanis said... ie to resort to winning an argument via authority is shallow.


Many use Trent to say we are saved by grace through works. But Trent just says we are justified by our grace filled works.

I think what justification actually is is the issue here. From the fourth chapter of Trent. Justification: "[A] translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior."

If justification is simply justifying God's act through Jesus, then there is no dispute. It's like.. if I buy you a coat and you use it.. you are justifying my buying of the coat. Whether or not this justification is required to avoid eternal damnation is the question that I can't seem to find explicitly taught by the Church. Here is what James Akin has to say on the issue.


[quote]So a Catholic need have no problems with the forensic/declaratory aspects of justification. God does indeed declare us righteous, and that is nothing with which a Catholic needs to quarrel. A Catholic also does not need to quarrel about which kind of righteousness is the cause and which is the effect, whether God declares a person legally righteous and that, by the miraculous creative power of his word, makes the person actually righteous, or whether God makes the person actually righteous and therefore declares the person legally righteous. This is a matter of indifference in Catholic theology. [/quote]

He also talks about not letting simple difference in wordings make us fight when the substance is the same.

It seems as if the actual method of salvation in this quote's context anyway is left actually unelaborated on. General words are used. It seems to me that perhaps Protestants believe that we are legally rightous with everything else secondary. If this is the case and if Akin is right, it seems that protestants simply have a more specific point of view than does the Catholic Church.

It seems assurance may be the only issue that we have in difference with protestants. Catholics can have very great assurance of salvation, (in a certain sense infallible) but cannot have infallible, no-possibility-of-error, certainty of faith that they are saved. This point is born out by the fact that many people think they are saved who are in fact not. They think they have fulfilled the conditions of salvation, but in reality they have not. This is something that thoughtful Protestants admit, even though it often rubs against the grain of a lot of Protestant rhetoric.

So Catholics can be saved right now, and just not claim to be.

Basically I questioning whether justification necessarily means salvation. You need justification, but for what purpose (means to the end of avoiding hell or just a bi product) seems undefined to me. Whether or not this justification is required to avoid eternal damnation is the question that I can't seem to find explicitly taught by the Church. I may be wrong but I'm not sure if there is an actual difference after all other than the word games.

Edited April 19, 2004 by megamattman1

[Theoketos]

[quote name='megamattman1' date='Apr 19 2004, 12:45 PM'] jesussaves has been bringing up the issue of works and faith again. i realize most Catholics here would say we are saved from eternal damnation by our grace-filled good works. I would like a clarification from a knowledgable Catholic from a good source if possible as to if this is explicitly in the cathechism that we must be justified to be saved from damnation in a final judgement? I will elaborate on my why I ask my question.


[/quote]
First I think you need to find where a Catholic says that.

[willguy]

Check the reference section.

[ironmonk]

This sums up the Catholic teaching...

As the Bible says, I am already saved ([b]Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8[/b]), but I'm also being saved ([b]1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12[/b]), and I have the hope that I will be saved ([b]Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15[/b]). I am redeemed, and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling ([b]Phil. 2:12[/b]), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ ([b]Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13[/b])--but not with a false "absolute" assurance about my own ability to persevere ([b]2 Cor. 13:5[/b]). And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.


There must be harmony in the Scripture for the interpretation to be true. The bible does not contradict itself, only man's interpretation of it.


Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

Edited April 19, 2004 by ironmonk

[Justified Saint]

Harmony - such a beautiful word. Too often when this debate takes place, it always seems that the proponents of sola fide or eternal security simply dismiss the "difficult" verses and say, "that can't be true because it contradicts this verse in Romans" or something like that. Simply no effort to engage in the text and instead we get some horrible interpretation of another verse. This is bound to happen though when you are your own interpreter, your own infallible aribter of truth. Lumberjack mentioned in another thread that the true follower of Jesus can simply take his Bible and preach the full truth of the Gospel. Yeah you can, but you are gonna have a different gospel from anybody and everybody else who does that. I don't think Jesus wanted that.

In Sola Scriptura, all truth hinges on man's own ability to come to the proper interpretation and understanding - that kind of takes God out of the whole mix.

[phatcatholic]

megamattman,

ok, here is my understanding. however, i am not 100% certain of its orthodoxy, so i urge someone to correct me if i am wrong. i am however rather confident that it is in line w/ the Church:

i have always seen "justification" as the cause, and "sanctification" as the effect. justification is what God does to us, and sanctification is the result. therefore, when God justifies us, we are not just declared righteousness, but truly sanctified. by "sanctified" i mean cleansed of all stain of sin and perfectly reconciled to God and man.

now, as to rather "justification" is necessary for "salvation," i say yes. the distinction lies in rather or not this justification occurs on earth or in purgatory. if we die w/o mortal sin on our souls, but we are still connected to the negative effects of sin, then heaven can be ours w/o having been justified on earth. however, this justification must occur in purgatory b/c nothing unclean can enter heaven.

therefore, justification is necessary for salvation (for a place in heaven).

i hope this helps. i have written this rather quickly b/c i am late for class. i may expound upon it further later on.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[God Conquers]

Hmmm, I'm just digging up an apologetics talk that I did on this subject...

Individual Salvation: The Truth
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.
Faith is a gift from God. We must accept it.
Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
We start to love God and hate sin, we believe in His revelation. (The Church and Scripture)
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.
Justification demonstrates the change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer.
How does this happen? Baptism.

John 3:5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

We are cleansed of Original Sin and enter into the Church. We are open to Sacramental Grace.

As adults we must make the choice to act out our baptismal vows. We must turn away from sin and towards God. This requires an intrinsic union of Divine and human action, characterized by: GRACE- from God, and MORAL FREEDOM- free will (our choices in life)

To summarize, salvation is twofold:

I. FAITH-
II. Sorrow for all Sins and resolution to begin new life with BAPTISM and observing God’s Commandments. (Justification)
Justification comprises not only the forgiveness of sins but also :
“Sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of Sanctifying Grace and other supernatural gifts.” – Council of Trent

We are Justified by God’s Justice, not by the fact that He IS Just, but by the fact that He MAKES us Just.

Effects of Justification

I. FREEDOM FROM SIN
II. SANCTITY
Our soul receives sanctity in imitation of God’s own Holiness.

I hope this helps.

[God Conquers]

You're basically correct phatcatholic.