Can A Devout Catholic?

[WarriorForJesus]

[color="#800080"]Is it your opinion that a devout Catholic can disagree with you on what Catholicism teaches?

IOW, are you well read, well studied in all things Catholic or do you still have elements of Catholicism to learn?

I know I am not an expert on all things Catholic.

Janice[/color]

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288762833' post='2184367']
[color="#800080"]Is it your opinion that a devout Catholic can disagree with you on what Catholicism teaches?

IOW, are you well read, well studied in all things Catholic or do you still have elements of Catholicism to learn?

I know I am not an expert on all things Catholic.

Janice[/color]
[/quote]
No, otherwise I might have converted.

If you believe the Catholic faith, you accept the truth of the Church's teachings even when you don't get it but recognize that you have learning to do to understand it. It is (or at least seems) fundamental that you accept the authority of the Church and it's teachings based on the Bible, et al.

As for well read, I have read various articles here and there, listened to a few Catholic sermons and youtube videos, attended a catechism class most of a school quarter, read a bit of the catechism, defended Catholic soteriology in debates, had a number of discussions with a Catholic campus minister, and a few other things, and have stuff I have not learned.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Light and Truth

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288762833' post='2184367']
[color="#800080"]Is it your opinion that a devout Catholic can disagree with you on what Catholicism teaches?

IOW, are you well read, well studied in all things Catholic or do you still have elements of Catholicism to learn?

I know I am not an expert on all things Catholic.

Janice[/color]
[/quote]
Don't know what you're asking, but if you mean:
Can a devout Catholic disagree with the Church?

The answer is:
[u][b]No.[/b][/u]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1288764727' post='2184370']Don't know what you're asking, but if you mean:
Can a devout Catholic disagree with the Church?

The answer is:
[u][b]No.[/b][/u][/quote]Provisionally disagreed, in as much as it depends on what your disagreeing with. Some teachings, values, practices, in Catholicism are more necessary for Catholicism than others. But hopefully Catholicism is more than just words and actions merged together.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Mr Cat

[WarriorForJesus]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1288764727' post='2184370']
Don't know what you're asking, but if you mean:
Can a devout Catholic disagree with the Church?

The answer is:
[u][b]No.[/b][/u]
[/quote]


[color="#800080"]I know that. Read my post again. Did I really ask that question?

It just seems in another thread that I had taken part in, when I disagreed with someone, I don't remember who, I was accused of disagreeing with Catholicism.

Now, can you understand the gist of my question?

Janice[/color]

Edited November 3, 2010 by WarriorForJesus

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288768018' post='2184374']
[color="#800080"] Did I really ask that question?
[/color]
[/quote]
[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1288764727' post='2184370']
Don't know what you're asking[/quote]

[WarriorForJesus]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1288769686' post='2184375']
[/quote]

[color="#800080"]I'm asking that if, at any time, I disagree with YOU about what Catholicism teaches, am I automatically wrong? Or could it be that what I understand the Catholic Church to teach is just as valid as what YOU understand the Catholic Church to teach.

Example: Say I believe that all killing is against what Jesus, God Incarnate, taught. Even in the OT, we are told the killing is againt the Commandments of God. Am I wrong that believe that Jesus told us not to kill each other? He said that even anger was a sin. He said that we are to turn the other cheek. He taught by example not to kill those who are out to kill us, did He not? In the NT, when did Peter, Paul, or anyone kill their oppressors?

Now, let's say that you believe that not all killing is wrong, am I wrong to understand Jesus' teachings as I do? When did Jesus ever tell anyone to kill anyone?

Self defense is understandable, natural, and even noble, when you are defending others who can not defend themselves, however, where did Jesus tell us to practice self-defense? And pre-emptive attacks, attack them before they can attack us, where is THAT in Jesus' teachings?

Perhaps God allows self defense for us because of our hardend hearts.

Will someone who could have partaken in self defense, and didn't, go to hell?

Janice[/color]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288770339' post='2184376']Even in the OT, we are told the killing is againt the Commandments of God.
[/quote]
The rest aside, this is false. The commandment tells us not to [i]murder[/i].

[CatherineM]

I've got oodles of Catholic education under my belt, but don't even feel as if I have even scratched the surface. I am always open to learning more.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288762833' post='2184367']
[color="#800080"]Is it your opinion that a devout Catholic can disagree with you on what Catholicism teaches?

IOW, are you well read, well studied in all things Catholic or do you still have elements of Catholicism to learn?

I know I am not an expert on all things Catholic.

Janice[/color]
[/quote]

No.

[rkwright]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288770339' post='2184376']
[color="#800080"]I'm asking that if, at any time, I disagree with YOU about what Catholicism teaches, am I automatically wrong? Or could it be that what I understand the Catholic Church to teach is just as valid as what YOU understand the Catholic Church to teach.

Example: Say I believe that all killing is against what Jesus, God Incarnate, taught. Even in the OT, we are told the killing is againt the Commandments of God. Am I wrong that believe that Jesus told us not to kill each other? He said that even anger was a sin. He said that we are to turn the other cheek. He taught by example not to kill those who are out to kill us, did He not? In the NT, when did Peter, Paul, or anyone kill their oppressors?

Now, let's say that you believe that not all killing is wrong, am I wrong to understand Jesus' teachings as I do? When did Jesus ever tell anyone to kill anyone?

Self defense is understandable, natural, and even noble, when you are defending others who can not defend themselves, however, where did Jesus tell us to practice self-defense? And pre-emptive attacks, attack them before they can attack us, where is THAT in Jesus' teachings?

Perhaps God allows self defense for us because of our hardend hearts.

Will someone who could have partaken in self defense, and didn't, go to hell?

Janice[/color]
[/quote]

Your question and example are a bit odd. Its like you're asking for some other authority to tell you that your beliefs are ok and the other person is wrong. You'll likely not find that, at least here.

Take your example. Say I disagree with your interpretations. I say the Church allows for killings in certain circumstances - war, death penalty, self defense, ect. Therefore based on my understanding of Church doctrine, you would be wrong. What does this mean? Simply that I think you're wrong - nothing more (honestly you could say well who are you to say that! I am right and you are wrong! )

The best thing to do is to continue to read on what the CCC, Saints, Popes, and other "experts" have to say on any issue. Test your theory to what they are saying. Truly test it - too often we just try to find support for our ideas we've already formed. Based on this, with reflection and prayer come to a conclusion about what the Church teaches and how that meshes with what you believe. My humble advice is: If you and the Church say different things, its time to re-evaluate your position.

In your example above, what does the CCC say about the death penalty, war, killing in self-defense. What does Paul say about those who bear the sword - and similarily what does Jesus say. Compare this to your thoughts above.

[thessalonian]

If your point is do I think my understanding of Catholicism is perfect such that if someone disagrees with me, they are automatically wrong, then answer would be, yes people can disagree with me. But I do not know of any major areas in the last 10 years where I have been wrong. There have been more minor disagreements certainly and others have convinced me that I needed to tweak my understanding and vice versa. But on major issues I don't think there is much room for disagreement and the Catechism is certainly the gold standard.

[sixpence]

I believe there are very many points about any number of topics that the Church has not expressed an official position on.

I think we are allowed to discuss these things amongst ourselves, as long as they do not contradict any of the Church's teachings.

[Hinter dem Horizont]

I'm well read in a lot of he Catholic teachings. But, as my humble heart tells me, I have a lot more to learn. People will naturally not always agree with another. Especially with intense topics of the death penalty and abortion. Within differences of personality there will be differences in opinions. But, as someone above said, the Catechism is the best place to go with these issues.

In the terms of self defense, for example, the Catechism states:

[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]"If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful"[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#202020][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]
[/size][/font][/color]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="3"][color="#202020"][size=2]In terms of another big issue, Abortion, it states:[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="3"][color="#202020"][size=2][size=2] [/size][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"][size=2]"Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life[/size][size="3"][size=2]"[/size][/size][/color][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"][size="3"][size=2]
[/size][/size][/color][/font]
[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][color="#202020"][size="3"][size=2]So, if someone were to go against these, then, they are gravely wrong and misguided when it comes to the belief system of Catholicism[/size][/size][/color][/font]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288768018' post='2184374']
[color="#800080"]I know that. Read my post again. Did I really ask that question?

It just seems in another thread that I had taken part in, when I disagreed with someone, I don't remember who, I was accused of disagreeing with Catholicism.

Now, can you understand the gist of my question?

Janice[/color]
[/quote]

Firstly, One has to ask the question! By what authority does that person claim you are in disagreement. It could be they who are wrong. Around the world there are significant variations in Church practices. Phorums are about discussion, questioning and [i]posing ideas[/i] from which we learn. Unfortunately there are people who are very quick to jump in and state that what you have said is heresy. Heresy is only true in the case where you have knowingly opposed a Church main dogmatic principle and have refused to learn and change your belief. It is not heresy to pose an idea in opposition to the Church for the purpose of learning from the intelligent response of other people. Jesus did this on occasion. For example:- When a person addressed Jesus as 'good teacher', Jesus replied. "Only God is good." He wasn't saying that he was not God. He was challenging the man's belief that he was God. Naturally Jesus was wise with his questions, unlike us who often get things ridiculously wrong. I have been accused of being silly for some of my ideas and no doubt that is true, but I do try to learn by my mistakes.

We also have to be careful with the [u]no[/u] answer. For example:- If we believed that the Eucharist was only symbolic, then I would think we could not be Catholic. However the Catholic interpretation of the Eucharist is not easily understood. It [b]appears[/b] contradictory, but is not when studied closely! For me to say that I believe in the presence of the supernatural body and blood of Christ and I am just a bit confused with the finer points of bread which is not bread is hopefully close enough. If I hadn't come to some degree of understanding and just said that I will accept whatever the Church says out of fear of not being Catholic, then I would think that somehow I was committing the sin of being a liar. And we are in any event all sinners and when we sin we are in disagreement with both God and the Church. Fortunately we can make amends.

We also have to consider what we are disagreeing with. For example:- As the media have so enthusiastically pointed out, the Catholic Church erred by it's handling of paedophile priests. I disagree with what they did. In my opinion any priest under suspicion should be closely supervised and any proven case should have resulted in defrocking in order to eliminate the most heinous sin possible from the Church. The Church has admitted it's error and I could hardly be accused of not being a Catholic for my disagreement.