The Word Of God Rerevealed?

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288920920' post='2184982']
I've been kicked off most of them for presenting my arguments, Been at this a while. Done a radio debate with James McCarthy, prominet anti-catholic, and public debate at a university with a prominent pastor. I am well aware of Mr. Mohler and his status and it doesn't surprise me that protestants don't want to debate. When they run in to a Catholic that knwos his faith, apologetics, and the bible, the are made geniuses.
[/quote]

Whoa! Stud!!!!1!1!!1!1

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paddington' timestamp='1288933744' post='2185057']
Whoa! Stud!!!!1!1!!1!1
[/quote]


Just stating facts. Thanks for the sarcasm. Guessing your all of 15, Nice of someone to edit my post. I did not put geniueses.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1288928114' post='2185014']
Sacred Tradition is the 'unwritten truths' (Vatican I) of the 'deeds wrought by God in salvation history' (Vatican II, Dei Verbum) e.g. the salvific and transcendent Passion and Death of Jesus on the Cross.

oral tradition is one form of transmitting the deeds wrought by God, it is not literally Sacred Tradition. Oral tradition could also be said to be one expression of Living Tradition.

Sacred Scripture, the words written by the Supreme Author God, proceed from Sacred Tradition which is the Deeds wrought by God in salvation history.
[/quote]

Actually according to Paul in 2 Thes, scripture is Sacred Traditiion as well. "Hold fast to the TRADITIONSSSSS you have received, whether by WORD OF MOUTH or in WRITING from us."

[MissScripture]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288976312' post='2185179']
Just stating facts. Thanks for the sarcasm. Guessing your all of 15, Nice of someone to edit my post. I did not put geniueses.
[/quote]
It's just the f[font="Arial"]il[/font]ter. It changes foo[font="Arial"]l[/font]s to geniuses.

[kafka]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288976527' post='2185181']
Actually according to Paul in 2 Thes, scripture is Sacred Traditiion as well. "Hold fast to the TRADITIONSSSSS you have received, whether by WORD OF MOUTH or in WRITING from us."
[/quote]
that is your interpretation.

I will be doing a succinct post on Sacred Tradition this weekend, since I am sick of seeing this mistake.

oral tradition is not a Divine Revelation. It is a one form of transmitting Divine Revelation. Catholics tend to mistake actual Divine Revelation with its transmission. They are two distinct things.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1288979252' post='2185205']
that is your interpretation.

I will be doing a succinct post on Sacred Tradition this weekend, since I am sick of seeing this mistake.

oral tradition is not a Divine Revelation. It is a one form of transmitting Divine Revelation. Catholics tend to mistake actual Divine Revelation with its transmission. They are two distinct things.
[/quote]

Oh my aren't we superior. Your sick of my mistake.? Gee sorry you have to be here putting up with us imbeciles. Paul clearly says scripture is a Tradition. You can argue with him all you want. It is a means of transmitting the word of God. I am fine with what your point of oral tradition. Due to your arrogance I will not be reading your succinct post. Scripture is clearly a Tradition, i.e. a means of transmission, is my point that you twist. That does not take away from it being Divine Revelation.

Edited November 5, 2010 by thessalonian

[kafka]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288993924' post='2185263']
Oh my aren't we superior. Your sick of my mistake.? Gee sorry you have to be here putting up with us imbeciles. Paul clearly says scripture is a Tradition. You can argue with him all you want. It is a means of transmitting the word of God. I am fine with what your point of oral tradition. Due to your arrogance I will not be reading your succinct post. Scripture is clearly a Tradition, i.e. a means of transmission, is my point that you twist. That does not take away from it being Divine Revelation.
[/quote]
holy cow. It is a general mistake among Catholics today. I think you are being a wee bit sensitive. I'm not twisting any of your points, I am just making my own points.

Sacred Scripture is the word of God, it is not a means of transmitting the word of God. Personally, I think you are over-analyzing, or coming up with an oversight, in your attempt to help the Protestants. The teachings of Jesus Christ while he was on earth were deeds of God, not inspired writings which is Sacred Scripture.

There was a unique situation in the life of the Church where the transmission of the deeds of Jesus Christ (or his acts, all of which were a Divine Revelation), took the form of inspired writings after Christ rose from the dead and sent the Spirit. These inspired writings spring forth from the life and teachings of Christ, but they are not necessarily word for word transcriptions of what Jesus said.

Dei Verbum has some precise definitions concerning the nature and relationship of Divine Revelation, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, and its transmission. I recommend studying this. You dont even need to read my posts. Pope Benedict also has some good stuff on Divine Revelation that he worked on for many years, starting with his disertation a long time ago.

I wrote a commentary on Dei Verbum from start to finish and posted it on this phorum, so maybe I will pass doing my post:

CHAPTER II

HANDING ON DIVINE REVELATION

[The handing of Divine Revelation is often called the transmission of Sacred Tradition, or simply Tradition. Divine Revelation and its transmission are distinct. Divine Revelation is the Deeds and Words wrought and written by God in salvation history. The tranmission of Divine Revelation is the Body of the Church handing of the truths of these Deeds and Words. This handing on or transmission is accomplished in many different ways.]

7. "In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations."

It is the plan of God to transmit His very own Deeds and Words by means of the Faithful on earth. This tranmission or handing is preserved in its full intregrity by the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion (see Cor. 1:20; 3:13; 4:6), commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, (1) and to impart to them heavenly gifts."

In this section Gospel is another term for Divine Revelation. The Apostles were direct witnesses to the deeds, teachings, etc. of Jesus Christ, who was the culmination of Divine Revelation. Thus it is perfect and fitting of Christ to commission them with the preaching of the Gospel. The Apostles are the premier transmitors Divine Revelation.

"This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit."

In general this paragraph refers to the tranmission of Divine Revelation. Notice now for the first time the many ways in which Divine Revelation is transmitted by the Apostles: by their oral preaching (words), by their example (deeds), by dispensing the Sacraments and by their writings. There is a broad range of means in which the set of truths expressed by the deeds and teachings of Jesus Christ is handed on. The primary means is by example, or by deeds. The Apostles chiefly transmitted the truths of Jesus Christ by imitating him.

The last phrase, 'or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit' refers to Sacred Scripture (not yet the Magisterium).

"The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. "(2)

This sentence describes a unique situation to the first generation of Christians. The New Testament Scriptures were both Divine Revelation as well as transmission of the Gospel. For Sacred Scripture is the Words written by God in salvation hisory, and the second pillar of the Holy Catholic Faith. Inspiration is unique to Sacred Scripture. Innerrancy and infallibility proceed from Inspiration.

This unique situation ended with the closing of the Canon of Sacred Scripture. Before and after the Canon of Sacred Scripture closed other Christians transmitted the deeds and teachings of Jesus Christ by means of writing (e.g. The Didache), yet these writings are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore these other writings are not inerrant and infallible. They have great value in their proximity to the Jesus Christ and the Apostles, yet they are fallible writings.

Here is a full commentary on Dei Verbum I wrote from start to finish, which I posted in Open Mic a few months ago. It is flawed but it might be useful:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=104948&st=0

Edited November 6, 2010 by kafka

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288976312' post='2185179']
Just stating facts. Thanks for the sarcasm. Guessing your all of 15,
[/quote]

You are a bad e-pologist and that says a lot. Why are you asking what a Protestant believes if you are such a vet? Why are you so quick to misrepresent when saying the wrong thing can cost you salvation? You will not apologize. You will continue to be the deluded oliphaunt of e-pologetics as you have been since I met you at age 11.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paddington' timestamp='1289045889' post='2185360']
You are a bad e-pologist and that says a lot. Why are you asking what a Protestant believes if you are such a vet? Why are you so quick to misrepresent when saying the wrong thing can cost you salvation? You will not apologize. You will continue to be the deluded oliphaunt of e-pologetics as you have been since I met you at age 11.
[/quote]

I asked a question to start a discussion. If it doesn't match your particular brand of protestantism move on rather than showing you are nothing more than a heckler as you have always been. You start personal attacks and ridicule. That is most of what you have done since I have seen you on this board. Oh my you went lower than me on age. I guess that means you upped the ante. Well whatever age you go lower I go lower nah - nah.

[thessalonian]

"
holy cow. It is a general mistake among Catholics today. I think you are being a wee bit sensitive. I'm not twisting any of your points, I am just making my own points. "


"since I am sick of seeing this mistake" - well where did you see it? In my post... So your statement above is bs.

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1289061474' post='2185395']
I asked a question to start a discussion. [/quote]

Agreed, but we aren't talking about that anymore. We never were talking about that.

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1289061474' post='2185395'] If it doesn't match your particular brand of protestantism[/quote]

Underneath my name you will see my religion. Kinda.

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1289061474' post='2185395'] move on rather than showing you are nothing more than a heckler as you have always been. You start personal attacks and ridicule. That is most of what you have done since I have seen you on this board.[/quote]

No, it just seems that way, because you are wrong so often.

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1289061474' post='2185395'] Oh my you went lower than me on age. I guess that means you upped the ante. Well whatever age you go lower I go lower nah - nah.[/quote]

You are missing something to do with elementary math here, but I'm proud of your spelling on the last post.

[kafka]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1289061668' post='2185397']
"
holy cow. It is a general mistake among Catholics today. I think you are being a wee bit sensitive. I'm not twisting any of your points, I am just making my own points. "


"since I am sick of seeing this mistake" - well where did you see it? In my post... So your statement above is bs.
[/quote]
to be quite honest, I didnt even read all your posts here, before I starting posting, and I still havent. I finally broke down and read your first post in this thread last night, and the one you quoted with me, but that is it.

I see the mistake all over the place. You seem to be thinking of yourself too much

[kafka]

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=109382&pid=2185448&st=0&#entry2185448

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288920920' post='2184982']
I've been kicked off most of them for presenting my arguments, Been at this a while. Done a radio debate with James McCarthy, prominet anti-catholic, and public debate at a university with a prominent pastor. I am well aware of Mr. Mohler and his status and it doesn't surprise me that protestants don't want to debate. When they run in to a Catholic that knwos his faith, apologetics, and the bible, the are made geniuses.
[/quote]

Neither are most Catholics interested in debate, but some people enjoy debate for the sport of it or are genuinely interested in learning another person's perspective. In those scenarios, it's enjoyable and productive. That said, James McCarthy doesn't strike me as someone worth debating. I've known several seminarians from Southern and they are as well educated as Catholic seminarians on Sacred Scripture and the Church Fathers, except that their education teaches a Calvinist interpretation of them. So running into a Catholic who knows their stuff wouldn't faze them a bit.

Edited November 10, 2010 by LouisvilleFan

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288144292' post='2182869']
Ok, I've been thinking about this lately and hope there is a protestant out here who believes in sola scriptura to comment. So here's the deal. Jesus walked the earth and gave many statements that were recorded in scripture. Problem is they were not recorded until long after they were spoken. For instance Jesus told Peter "thou art rock and on this rock I will build my church. I give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, ...". Was this the word of God when it was spoken? Well it would seem that way since God (Jesus) was saying it. Yet some 20-30 years later it was written down. So was it rerevealed when Matthew wrote it down or was it carried on by Tradition? If by Tradition then it would seem that for it to get in an infallible bible called sacred scripture it would have to be sacred oral trad
[/quote]

Ignoring the spat that has happened...

I will play devils advocate for the sake of debating this issue. Here is how I would have answered as an academic evangelical prior to my conversion.

I would cite the concept of an organic body of Christ. What this means is that the apostles had direct connection/experience of Christ and they shared that experience via word and paper. The body of Christ took that message and grew beyond race/gender. The apostles because of their connection with Christ were imprinted with an authority that lived on in their mission. I would have utterly denied apostolic authority as an authoritative thing and rather seen the early Church as a collection of not always agreeing small churches that formed a community based on how they are responding and trying to understand the apostolic message. This has continued throughout the ages. Sometimes there are bad leaders and bad people, but the organic invisible unity of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit would keep the body in truth. Even if part of it fell. I would never acknowledge sola scripture because I felt it was a myth, but I would say we should incorporate the collective historical experience of Christianity and understand their perspective of the gospel in light of their own time period. I would accuse Catholicism of falsely placing an authoritative message in the patristic text when the post-apostolic Church did not clearly have that vision. I would also accuse Catholicism of being Sola-Catechism and not scriptural or honestly patristically sound and informed.

I can play along with this concept if you want thess. Just remember I am playing Devils advocate.