The Issue Of Infallibility

[Guest Shadyrest]

"Sixpence" wonders:


[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Here is what I, honestly, do not understand about your viewpoint

For what reason do you consider the thoughts and writings of Paul and the evangelists (imperfect human beings, guided by the Holy Spirit), so different from the thoughts and writings of today's Church leaders (imperfect human beings, guided by the Holy Spirit)? I completely and honestly cannot understand this. [/size][/font][/color]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"][size="4"]Answer: The gospel writers were infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, and Roman Catholic Church leaders are [i]not, that's why. [/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"][size="4"]The claim at Vatican 2 spoke of the, [i]"force and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching authority [which] this sacred synod again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful." [/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"][size="4"]Boniface VIII confirms the claim of antiquity from V-2: [i]"it is altogether necessary for salvation for every creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"][size="4"]And Vatican 1 agrees in regard to being in subjection to the Roman Pontiff in particular, "[i]This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and salvation."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"][size="4"]So to answer your question, all non-Catholics utterly and emphatically deny that such statements came from the mind of God, which in essence says that all Christians who love Christ, but who are not in subjection to the Roman Pontiff, are headed for hell. [i]Salvation is in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ....period, [/i]and thus the Roman Catholic gospel must be cursed according to Galatian 1:8, [i]"but though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you other than that which we have preached, let him be accursed."[/i] [/size][/color][/size][/font]
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[Winchester]

What about the Ukrainian Catholic gospel?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1288028814' post='2182377']
What about the Ukrainian Catholic gospel?
[/quote]


Winchester, I beleive the Ukranian catholic church is in union with rome. I think their gospel would have to be the same too.

ed

[kafka]

are we having fun yet?

[sixpence]

1. I believe your reasoning boils down to: "It is not true because I (we) do not like it."

2. Could you please provide a link and/or context for the Vat II quotes.

3. Someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Catholics DID NOT hold that other Christians are automatically doomed.

Thanks

[sixpence]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1288031286' post='2182412']
are we having fun yet?


[/quote]

Of course!!

Isn't this how YOU have fun??? -->

[sixpence]

4. Under the assumption [b][i]your[/i][/b] definition of infallible is "always, 100% accurate, literal, truthful", and that the writers of the New Testament fall into this category :
Why are there completely contradictory accounts of the death of Judas Iscariot in Matthew and Acts?

PS~ It would be awesome if you could give a good answer... I had wondered this since I noticed it when I was about 10...

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1288031479' post='2182417']
1. I believe your reasoning boils down to: "It is not true because I (we) do not like it."

2. Could you please provide a link and/or context for the Vat II quotes.

3. Someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Catholics DID NOT hold that other Christians are automatically doomed.

Thanks
[/quote]

Number 3 is correct. Not all protestants are doomed according to the Catholic Churchs teachings.

[MissScripture]

So, how does this:
[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288026721' post='2182359']

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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"][size="4"]Answer: The gospel writers were infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, and Roman Catholic Church leaders are [i]not, that's why. [/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
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[/quote]

jive with this?

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1287897961' post='2181995']

But I do agree with you. Errors happen when human beings are involved.
Popes are human beings.
And that means, [i]they are not infallible.....under any circumstances.[/i]
[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1288030964' post='2182408']
Winchester, I beleive the Ukranian catholic church is in union with rome. I think their gospel would have to be the same too.

ed
[/quote]
...

[sixpence]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1288033885' post='2182433']
So, how does this:
Answer: The gospel writers were infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, and Roman Catholic Church leaders are [i]not, that's why. [/i]
[i]
[/i]


jive with this?
But I do agree with you. Errors happen when human beings are involved.
Popes are human beings.
And that means, [i]they are not infallible.....under any circumstances.[/i]

[/quote]

nice

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' timestamp='1288032930' post='2182430']
Number 3 is correct. Not all protestants are doomed according to the Catholic Churchs teachings.
[/quote]

You simply ignored all the proof I provided that came straight from your highest authorities, and then just tell us it all isn't true.
If that don't take the cake!

The truth is, yes, modern Roman Catholicism has said that God uses other "ecclesial communities as a means of salvation", [i] [/i](CCC #819) [i]but this merely begs the question:[/i]
[i]Does this not entirely contradict the Catholiciism of antiquity?[/i]
[i]
[/i]
The answer is a resounding [i]yes! [/i] Thus, It is rank foolishness to believe RC church leaders are guided by the Holy Spirit. He is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33).
If RC dignitaries from the past were brought back from the dead, they would most definitely not agree with 2010 RC theology. Should anyone wish to argue this, you would have to explain why I should believe RC theology 2010, and not that of antiquity. I say the two can never be reconciled and you have admitted as much by simply throwing out the window the concrete evidence presented, and thinking the current catechism solves the problem of the complete "about face" the church has taken, but refuses to come to grips with.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Shadyrest

[Winchester]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288037788' post='2182460']
You simply ignored all the proof I provided that came straight from your highest authorities, and then just tell us it all isn't true.
If that don't take the cake!

The truth is, yes, modern [s]Roman [/s]Catholicism has said that God uses other "ecclesial communities as a means of salvation", [i] [/i](CCC #819)(819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.") [i]but this merely begs the question:[/i]
[i]Does this not entirely contradict the Catholicism of antiquity?[/i]
[i]
[/i]
The answer is a resounding [i]yes! [/i] Thus, It is rank foolishness to believe [s]R[/s]C church leaders are guided by the Holy Spirit. He is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33).
If [s]R[/s]C dignitaries from the past were brought back from the dead, they would most definitely not agree with 2010 RC theology. Should anyone wish to argue this, you would have to explain why I should believe [s]R[/s]C theology 2010, and not that of antiquity. I say the two can never be reconciled and you have admitted as much by simply throwing out the window the concrete evidence presented, and thinking the current catechism solves the problem of the complete "about face" the Church has taken, but refuses to come to grip with.
[/quote]
It's still wrong, but I fixed your statement so you're saying what you meant to say. I also put in the entire paragraph so that you're no longer deceiving anyone with a convenient portion of the quote.

You're welcome.

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1288032466' post='2182426']
4. Under the assumption [b][i]your[/i][/b] definition of infallible is "always, 100% accurate, literal, truthful", and that the writers of the New Testament fall into this category :
Why are there completely contradictory accounts of the death of Judas Iscariot in Matthew and Acts?

PS~ It would be awesome if you could give a good answer... I had wondered this since I noticed it when I was about 10...
[/quote]



I'm going to be very hard on you by saying, [i]do you mean to tell me that since 10 years old, you have not taken the effort to go to any Christian bookstore, or even attempt to find an answer on-line by a reliable source to see what others smarter than yourself have concluded? Do you even own a Bible commentary by one who has spent their entire life expounding upon the text?[/i]
[i]
[/i]
Your attitude smacks of the reason why there are so many false beliefs that keep on circulating within your ranks. People never get up and check things out for themselves. I would remind you that we are to, [i]"Study to show yourself approved" [/i](2 Tim 2:15).

Now I pulled out the very first Bible commentary I have on my shelf (and I have quite a few), and instantly, I read:

"There is no contradiction between the mode of Judas' death here (in Matt 27), and that which is found in Acts.



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[b]Judas committed suicide by hanging[/b]

[indent][[url="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=NIV&passage=Matthew+27:5"]Matt 27:5[/url]][/indent]
[b]Judas allegedly did not hang himself, but died another way[/b]

[indent][[url="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=NIV&passage=Acts+1:18"]Acts 1:18[/url]][/indent]Matt 27:5 states that Judas "threw the pieces of silver....and he went away and hanged himself."Acts 1:18 states, "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out."

It's rather easy to reconcile these: Committing suicide is not always successful. He could have tried (Matt 27) and then failed (Acts 1:18) wherein the rope probably broke, pitching his body forward and causing it to burst open upon impact from the height he was at (since obviously you have to get some space between your feet and the ground to hang yourself)."










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[Winchester]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288039102' post='2182468']
...obviously you have to get some space between your feet and the ground to hang yourself)
[/quote]

Yeah, that ain't true at all. Sorry.