Never-Ending List Of Requirements For Salvation

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1288031269' post='2182411']
Dismissed.
[/quote]

I'm still wondering what splinter group this Roman Catholic controversalist is part of? He flat out denies what the church teaches. It's obvious he wishes that his leaders had never said the following, but they did: So to repeat....


[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"]Boniface VIII confirms the claim of antiquity from V-2: [i]"it is altogether necessary for salvation for every creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"][i]
[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"]And Vatican 1 agrees in regard to being in subjection to the Roman Pontiff in particular, "[i]This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and [u]salvation[/u]."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/size][/font][/color][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"][/size][/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"][i]
[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"]These statements expose the lie of the false gospel to which you adhere. And yes, the case will indeed be "dismissed" when you are told to, "Depart from me, I never knew you".[/size][/color][/size][/font]

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='holly.o' timestamp='1288050889' post='2182520']
One word for you: [i]mercy[/i].

Actually two words, to make it more clear: [b]Divine Mercy[/b].


[/quote]


[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]

It appears however, that you are condemned by your own church. The Council of Trent said in session 6, canon 10, that the Church pronounces a curse on those who say that "justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy that remits sins on account of Christ".

Protestants do believe and do have confidence in that divine mercy of which Trent denied. Trusting in His salvific work in our behalf will save [i]anybody. [/i]Thus, if you are consistent, you should leave the Roman Church [i]immediately, [/i]and find peace in the divine mercy of Christ alone, who gives us rest (Ps 33:18, 33:22, 130:7, 147:11). The false christ of Catholicism only brings burdens, strife and confusion.[/size][/font][/color]

[havok579257]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288059016' post='2182562']
I'm still wondering what splinter group this Roman Catholic controversalist is part of? He flat out denies what the church teaches. It's obvious he wishes that his leaders had never said the following, but they did: So to repeat....


[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"]Boniface VIII confirms the claim of antiquity from V-2: [i]"it is altogether necessary for salvation for every creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"][i]
[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"]And Vatican 1 agrees in regard to being in subjection to the Roman Pontiff in particular, "[i]This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and [u]salvation[/u]."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/size][/font][/color][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"][/size][/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"][i]
[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"]These statements expose the lie of the false gospel to which you adhere. And yes, the case will indeed be "dismissed" when you are told to, "Depart from me, I never knew you".[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]

are you still here? what is your point? your not trying to convert people because your being so unchristian about everything you say. Jesus would never act the way you act. so why are you here? just to argue?

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1288039433' post='2182473']


Okay, then.

I respectfully withdraw from conversation, as it seems that you're not looking for conversation in the first place. I wish you well. Prayers.

The Church... does not consign you, or any one else, to Hell.

[/quote]



Your response is a total denial of Vatican 1, which you can't escape, so you decide to leave the conversation to put it out of your mind. This is being "willfully ignorant" , using the words of 2 Peter 3:5.
So let's say it again: Vatican 1 said that if you are not in subjection to the Roman Pontiff, this will result in "loss of salvation".
[i]Like it or not, that means, hell.[/i]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288060390' post='2182568']
Your response is a total denial of Vatican 1, which you can't escape, so you decide to leave the conversation to put it out of your mind. This is being "willfully ignorant" , using the words of 2 Peter 3:5.
So let's say it again: Vatican 1 said that if you are not in subjection to the Roman Pontiff, this will result in "loss of salvation".
[i]Like it or not, that means, hell.[/i]
[/quote]
THAT IS SO COOL! I DIDN'T KNOW YOU COULD READ MINDS! THAT IS AMAZING!

[CatherineM]

As to Salvation, Mr. Luther had some things to say about sinning.

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." ('Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's
Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521).

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1288060122' post='2182567']
are you still here? what is your point? your not trying to convert people because your being so unchristian about everything you say. Jesus would never act the way you act. so why are you here? just to argue?
[/quote]




What is my point? Catholicism preaches a false gospel (!). You don't understand what I say because you're unfamiliar with the Scriptures, and I've answered every objection with responses that are more logical and persuasive than anything you have offered thus far; which is to say, "nothing". You're being even more foolish to assume, "Jesus would never act the way you do". Nonsense. A large portion of the entire N.T. is a warning against false doctrine, Jesus says he hates false doctrine and so do I (Rev 2:15). Also, the reason I dispute is perfectly in line with the apostle Paul, whose [size="2"][font="Arial"]life was literally [b][u]filled[/u][/b] with disputing, so much so that he was accused of turning the world upside down {Acts 9:22,17:2, 17:6, 17:17, 18:4, 18:19, 19:8-10; 19:26, 20:31,24:25, 28:23}. He challenged the status quo and was unconcerned about ruffling feathers, saying, "Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the [/font][i][font="Arial"]truth[/font][/i][font="Arial"]? {Galatians 4:16}. This is a debate table! ....and so your question, "are you here just to argue?" is completely out of order. You simply have no answers to the things I say and that's because the word of God is like a hammer that breaks Catholic claims into pieces (Jer 23:29). So just like (I think it was Teresa, who preferred to leave the conversation rather than admit defeat), you just label me as "unchristian" with not a speck of proof and think you've accomplished something.[/font][/size]
[size="2"][font="Arial"]Who can possibly take you seriously?[/font][/size]

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1288061536' post='2182578']
As to Salvation, Mr. Luther had some things to say about sinning.

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." ('Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's
Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521).
[/quote]


Again, I am not Lutheran, and neither are probably 75% of all non-catholics, so your persistent bent to classify me as such is a grasping at straws. Since you haven't been able to refute anything I have previously said, you switch topics and think hitting M.L. over the head will accomplish something. It doesn't.

[color="#333333"][font="Georgia, serif"][size="2"] [color="#000000"][font="Arial"]Luther must be allowed to speak for himself, not through the mouths of later interpreters, whether friend or foe; and second, the touchstone in Luther's interpretation must be the reformer's [u]central convictions[/u], not his occasional remarks, which, when taken in isolation from his core theology, can be used to build utterly perverse and misleading descriptions of his character. You have captured one sentence from a man who wrote a million words and have isolated it from his faith and grace filled world view! It is utterly impossible for me to believe you are any sort of "scholar" by including this sentence without further comment, and it is inexcusable. Luther was prone to strong hyperbole, wishing that his words were a catalyst to deeper thinking. And since more biographies about Luther have been written than any other religious figure, it appears he achieved his goal.[/font]
[/color]
From a blog:
"The "sin boldly" quote is an obscure saying of Luther's from a fragment of a letter . The letter has no address, salutation, or signature. In other words, it has no beginning or ending, thus lacking a complete context. The letter was originally part of a private collection that was published in the 1800's. After being published, Catholic scholars (and some liberal protestant scholars) with a strong bent against Luther jumped all over it. Because Roman Catholic authors cited it out of context and blew it out proportion, common laymen (both Protestant and Catholic) were given a faulty understanding of Luther's theology of justification by faith alone."
[/size][/font][/color]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288059016' post='2182562']
I'm still wondering what splinter group this Roman Catholic controversalist is part of? He flat out denies what the church teaches. It's obvious he wishes that his leaders had never said the following, but they did: So to repeat....


[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"]Boniface VIII confirms the claim of antiquity from V-2: [i]"it is altogether necessary for salvation for every creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"][i]
[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#595959"][size="2"]And Vatican 1 agrees in regard to being in subjection to the Roman Pontiff in particular, "[i]This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and [u]salvation[/u]."[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/size][/font][/color][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"][/size][/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"][i]
[/i][/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="5"][color="#595959"][size="2"]These statements expose the lie of the false gospel to which you adhere. And yes, the case will indeed be "dismissed" when you are told to, "Depart from me, I never knew you".[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]
When you read the actual catechism, you see the entire paragraph. I put a link on your comments page to help you.

You're welcome.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288077896' post='2182639']

From a balrog:
"The "sin boldly" quote is an obscure saying of Luther's from a fragment of a letter . The letter has no address, salutation, or signature. In other words, it has no beginning or ending, thus lacking a complete context. The letter was originally part of a private collection that was published in the 1800's. After being published, Catholic scholars (and some liberal protestant scholars) with a strong bent against Luther jumped all over it. Because Roman Catholic authors cited it out of context and blew it out proportion, common laymen (both Protestant and Catholic) were given a faulty understanding of Luther's theology of justification by faith alone."

[/quote]
I have no doubt people did stuff like that. It's like someone taking a small portion of a paragraph and ignoring the rest in order to present a certain incorrect viewpoint.

Lying happens all the time.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288075135' post='2182638']
What is my point? Catholicism preaches a false gospel (!). You don't understand what I say because you're unfamiliar with the Scriptures, and I've answered every objection with responses that are more logical and persuasive than anything you have offered thus far; which is to say, "nothing". You're being even more foolish to assume, "Jesus would never act the way you do". Nonsense. A large portion of the entire N.T. is a warning against false doctrine, Jesus says he hates false doctrine and so do I (Rev 2:15). Also, the reason I dispute is perfectly in line with the apostle Paul, whose [size="2"][font="Arial"]life was literally [b][u]filled[/u][/b] with disputing, so much so that he was accused of turning the world upside down {Acts 9:22,17:2, 17:6, 17:17, 18:4, 18:19, 19:8-10; 19:26, 20:31,24:25, 28:23}. He challenged the status quo and was unconcerned about ruffling feathers, saying, "Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the [/font][i][font="Arial"]truth[/font][/i][font="Arial"]? {Galatians 4:16}. This is a debate table! ....and so your question, "are you here just to argue?" is completely out of order. You simply have no answers to the things I say and that's because the word of God is like a hammer that breaks Catholic claims into pieces (Jer 23:29). So just like (I think it was Teresa, who preferred to leave the conversation rather than admit defeat), you just label me as "unchristian" with not a speck of proof and think you've accomplished something.[/font][/size]
[size="2"][font="Arial"]Who can possibly take you seriously?[/font][/size]
[/quote]


admit defeat? are you two years old? if your trying to convert us, why are you so worried about winning and losing?

Jesus was not unchristian. Jesus did not have personal attacks against others. Well.. the real Jesus never was unchristian. Obviously you must believe in some other Jesus if you think Jesus would personally attack people.


Since your supposedly so superior you should just leave us to our own devices. Every few months one of you come on these boards, blast catholics, twist the bible, deny facts, then leave and convert no one. So there is really no point in you being here. Better people than you have tried to convert us and failed. YOur doing nothing other than wasting your time. Time better spent reading the gospel.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1288100686' post='2182658']
admit defeat? are you two years old? if your trying to convert us, why are you so worried about winning and losing?

Jesus was not unchristian. Jesus did not have personal attacks against others. Well.. the real Jesus never was unchristian. Obviously you must believe in some other Jesus if you think Jesus would personally attack people.


Since your supposedly so superior you should just leave us to our own devices. Every few months one of you come on these boards, blast catholics, twist the bible, deny facts, then leave and convert no one. So there is really no point in you being here. Better people than you have tried to convert us and failed. YOur doing nothing other than wasting your time. Time better spent reading the gospel.
[/quote]

+1. It is the insanity of fundamentalism. If you look at cult leaders they trust in their own personal interpretation of scripture and use the same circular logic as fundamentalists. When I came here as a hard core anti-Catholic fundamentalist the first thing I had to do was learn logic and how often I ignored it by studying logical fallacies. Once I learned how to dialogue with my Catholic brothers and sisters we had some really fruitful debates here.

Salvation is even more simple in the Catholic Church than in Protestant communities if you move beyond the rhetoric and semantics. At the finest level Catholics are saved by faith in Jesus. When you dig into the theology of salvation, it gets incredibly complex, no matter what system of thought you are using, Catholic or fundamentalist. Try reading the soteriology of Calvin. It will make your head hurt. You don't actually need to know that theology to be saved though, any more than you have to worry about 'rules' in any Church, baptist or Catholic. If you live out your faith in Jesus, you are already following those rules. And what few rules we have when you think about it. Our rules are all summed up as "open yourself to grace, and allow Jesus to shed his grace on you in great abundance." It is because of our own stubbornness, like that of Israel, that anything else ever needs to be said.

[holly.o]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288060007' post='2182566']
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]

It appears however, that you are condemned by your own church. The Council of Trent said in session 6, canon 10, that the Church pronounces a curse on those who say that "justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy that remits sins on account of Christ".

Protestants do believe and do have confidence in that divine mercy of which Trent denied. Trusting in His salvific work in our behalf will save [i]anybody. [/i]Thus, if you are consistent, you should leave the Roman Church [i]immediately, [/i]and find peace in the divine mercy of Christ alone, who gives us rest (Ps 33:18, 33:22, 130:7, 147:11). The false christ of Catholicism only brings burdens, strife and confusion.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]




I'm going to admit some ignorance and say I honestly don't understand your quote from the Council of Trent. However, I suspect the surrounding context needs to be read to really get its full meaning. So I can't really discuss that since I don't have that kind of time and knowledge right now. Also, referring to Divine Mercy is to be taken as an answer for those who despair of salvation because of the lack of good works - that faith & works go together. So I think I may have been actually on a different wavelength than you in terms of what I was responding to and what you are interpreting. This is why I don't go into the Debate Table much... sometimes too many ideas get thrown around and people miss each other's intentions (or completely disregard them).

I was going to respond regarding the second part of your post, but Brother Adam did a much better job than I could do... & I'll just quote him again since good things deserve to be repeated in case someone missed it the first time.





[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1288113876' post='2182692']
Salvation is even more simple in the Catholic Church than in Protestant communities if you move beyond the rhetoric and semantics. At the finest level Catholics are saved by faith in Jesus. When you dig into the theology of salvation, it gets incredibly complex, no matter what system of thought you are using, Catholic or fundamentalist. Try reading the soteriology of Calvin. It will make your head hurt. You don't actually need to know that theology to be saved though, any more than you have to worry about 'rules' in any Church, baptist or Catholic. If you live out your faith in Jesus, you are already following those rules. And what few rules we have when you think about it. Our rules are all summed up as "open yourself to grace, and allow Jesus to shed his grace on you in great abundance." It is because of our own stubbornness, like that of Israel, that anything else ever needs to be said.
[/quote]




I'll second that about Calvinism being complicated! Predestination according to Calvin is quite harsh.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288057108' post='2182559']
First of all, I never said or implied that all Catholics had to do was recite a prayer. I was quite clear that it was nothing singular, but a big fat[b] list[/b] of requirements, which do definitely fall into the category of [i]legaleeze, and they are anti-christian to the core, resulting in a works salvation.[/i]
[i]
[/i]
Second, while I do not deny for a moment the "relationship" aspect, you have completely eliminated the other half of the equation, which in my point 3, proves you are believing a false gospel.
[i]
[/i]
[i]Third, your denial that the Bible does not convey a "spiritual justice system where Jesus does the time for those who call on His name", is precisely what we find in Scripture. Very briefly, He was our [u]Substitute[/u] --(which even the catechism affirms in #603) and the iniquity of us all was laid on Him, by imputation (Isa 53; a legal term, which makes it spiritual justice), where we are not now "condemned" (Roman 8:1; a legal term), but are now "set free" (read that as, "out of jail, per Luke 4:18) because since our sins are compared to a debt (Matt 6:12) Christ has "paid" the penalty for them (a legal term...."It is finished" in the Greek is "tetelestai", written on bills of sale circa AD 30 which translates, "paid in full"), and was raised for our "justification" (Rms 4:25; a legal term). He also became our "Surety" (Heb 7:22; a legal term, where the Surety is the One who will pay the debt for those who can't pay!). [/i]

[/quote]


I get what you are trying to say! I hear you. And I don't deny at all that Jesus's sacrifice was atonement for our sins, that He paid a penalty that SOMEONE had to pay. (Although there's actually a fascinating diversity of views about how the atonement works - in the East, for instance, Christians believe it's not so much a pardon under the law as a transformation of human nature). My quibble is that you can't reduce salvation to JUST the legal aspects. Because Scripture makes clear, that what Jesus is doing is all about relationship. You can follow the letter of the law with exactness but it won't save you.

Sometimes when the argument comes up, Protestants and Catholics talk past each other because the Catholics aren't explaining what we mean by "works." For Catholics, "works" is another way of saying "deep relationship with Jesus Christ." The Word says that if we don't do works like feeding the poor, visiting those in prison, etc, that we will go to Hell. I know there's many ways to interpret Scripture but I feel like God's Word is so clear on that - departing from Him, to go to the place with gnashing of teeth.

But if we DO feed the poor, visit the sick etc, then we are building a relationship with Jesus Christ, Whom we believe to be our Lord, and it is that faith-filled relationship that saves. We'll have gotten to know Him so well, that He'll recognize us when we call Him Lord. Without a close friendship with Jesus, all you have is a dead faith, and dead faith can not save.

I'm excited to tell you that Catholicism is not an either/or religion - it's both/and! Faith AND works, not faith OR works. So we feel that only a living faith - a true deep faith where you do the work to maintain a relationship with Jesus - is what leads to eternal life.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Maggie

[Socrates]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1288030597' post='2182400']
You haven't refuted a thing I've said, so your claim of "not seeing any evidence" is to be dismissed at once.

Also, I find it incredibly amusing about your parents so-called "conversion". Let me get this straight: Without an infallible interpreter ([i]and before entering the church[/i]) they were able to rely on their own understanding and conclusions of Scripture and church history to decide that Catholicism was biblical.
Fine.
But isn't it shocking that once they stepped over the threshold of their parish for the first time, that they were [i]now [/i] told that their private interpretations, such as that which led them [i]into the Roman Church, [/i]were now [u]not[/u] to be trusted, but rather, Scripture and church history were henceforth to be understood only with an infallible interpreter?

The internal contradictions of such a system cut to the core at the most fundamental level, and your parent's "conversion" story is therefore inadequate in laying a sound foundation for accepting their claims. Consequently, if you applaud your parent's [i]fallible [/i]reasoning faculties to arrive at Rome, you cannot then claim that those same reasoning faculties are illegitimate for everyone else who does [i]not [/i]arrive at Rome. And keep in mind, that the decision to trust Rome as an infallible guide, is [i]itself[/i] a fallible decision. So at the end of the day, Rome claims to be an infallible interpreter, and the Roman Catholic has [i]fallibly [/i]decided to believe that claim.
[/quote]
Basically, I'm saying your anti-Catholic c[font="Arial"]ra[/font]p isn't anything anyone hasn't seen before. You guys are a dime-a-dozen.

If you found my parents' conversion incredibly amusing, then this ought to be a real side-splitter:
Someone uses his [i]fallible [/i]reasoning faculties to arrive at the conclusion that the Bible is indeed the infallible Word of God, and then decides to trust the Bible as an infallible guide to life.
And keep in mind, that the decision to trust the Bible as an infallible guide, is [i]itself[/i] a fallible decision.

Hilarious, isn't it?


Truth and reason aren't opposed, and having Faith doesn't mean you're supposed to turn your brain off.

So according to you are one's reasoning faculties wrong and not to be trusted if they lead one's reading of Sacred Scripture to a different conclusion than your own?

When did Jesus Christ appoint Shadyrest the infallible interpreter of Scripture?
I must have somehow missed that part in the Bible.