Never-Ending List Of Requirements For Salvation

[Micah]

I have, for your benefit, pulled a few examples of the importance of sound teaching which far outweigh the slight pericope you pulled out of context:

2 Thess 2: 15: [color="#001320"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"]So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.[/size][/font][/color]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"] [/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]1 Cor 11: 2: I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"] [/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]Titus 1: 9: He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"] [/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]Titus 2: 1: You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"] [/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]2 Tim 3: 14: But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"] [/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"] [/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]Rather than fighting Christ's servants like Saul, you should be like the Eunuch who says, "How can I understand unless someone explains it to me" in the Acts of the Apostles. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by rejecting the fullness of truth. [/size][/color][/size][/font]

Edited October 25, 2010 by Micah

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287977364' post='2182242']
The majority of Church Fathers believed the [font="arial, sans-serif"][size="2"]Deuterocanonical Books to belong to the Canon, just as the Apostles had them in their Canon. I and the Catholic Church will go with the Canon of the Apostles and not the Canon of Luther.[/size][/font]
[font="arial, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, sans-serif"][size="2"]Here's some fun bedtime reading. Enjoy.[/size][/font]
[font="arial, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, sans-serif"][size="2"]--------[/size][/font]
[font="arial, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, sans-serif"][size="2"] Source: [/size][url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html"] [/url][size="2"][url="http://www.scripture...uterocanon.html"]http://www.scripture...uterocanon.html[/url][/size]
[/i][/size][/font]
[/quote]

[color="#000000"]Many of the supposed references to the "A" in the above are so vague that they could either be a reference to other works or else the similarity may simply be coincidental. That's why the Catholic apologist often says that an Apoc verse "reminds us", or "follows" or is "similar" to a N.T. reference. I'm sure any anxious papist could find many "similar to's" if they compare the Bible to the Sunday newspaper![/color]



[color="#000000"]For example, you say that in Matt. 12:42, Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.[/color]



[color="#000000"][img]http://mail.yimg.com/a/i/mesg/tsmileys2/29.gif[/img] I'm afraid I must award you a bozo sticker, as your assumption is grossly out of context.[/color][color="#000000"][color="#0000BF"][color="#000000"] Jesus refers to the Queen of Sheba who was interested in hearing of the wisdom of Solomon---but we read of her in the book of FIRST KINGS AND 2 CHRONICLES, not "The Book of Wisdom". And how, pray tell, would you, for that matter, know that Soloman wrote Wisdom, may I ask? In fact, the Catholic NAB reports in its very first sentence prologue that the book was written by someone whose name is [/color][u][color="#000000"]not[/color][/u][color="#000000"] known to us, and only at times speaks in the person of Solomon.[/color][/color][/color]



[font="arial, sans-serif"][size="2"]Furthermore, your accusation that Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them is categorically false! Jamnia was debating over the inspiration of 5 books: Ezekial, Proverbs, Ecclesiaties, Song of Songs and Esther. They were discussing whether what WAS traditonally held as canonical, should REMAIN SO. There was never any discussion of accepting any of the "A" books in the canon. Roger Beckwith makes this clear:[/size][/font]



[size="4"]"The theory that an open canon was closed at the Synod of Jamnia goes back to Heinrich Graetz in 1871, who proposed that the theory that Jamnia LED to the closing of the canon. This theory was completely refuted by J.P. Lewis and S.Z. Leiman. The combined results of their investigation confirm the above and say that[/size]

[size="4"]a) The term "synod" or "council" is inappropriate. The acadamy of Jamnia was both a college and a legislative body, and the occasion in question was a session of the elders there.[/size]

[size="4"]b) The decision reached was not regarded as authoritative, since contrary opinions continued to be expressed throughout the second century (The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church", p. 276).[/size]



[size="4"]And F.F. Bruce confirms that Jamnia changed nothing relative to the canonical status of the O.T. books ("The Canon of Scripture", p. 34).[/size]



[size="4"]Thus, your revisionist history is exposed because the Apocrypha was never even considered for the canon, nor was it even discussed. And the history of Judaism following Jamnia shows that the "A" was never accepted by the Jews. The witness of Aquila, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek after Jamnia, was the canon catalogued by Jerome and Josephus! As Beckwith points out, Jamnia changed nothing with respect to the canon:[/size]



[size="4"]"We have evidence in surviving fragments of Aquil'a translation that there is no hint of it including any apocryphal book. It included all 5 of the disputed books [and] Aquila's rabbinal credentials are unimpeachable. " (p. 277).[/size]

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1287962535' post='2182174']
Your statement is categorically false. It is simply astonishing that you are bent on letting your tradition guide your understanding, instead of reading what the Text actually says. The real issue is that you wish that the Holy Spirit had put the words of James, into the mouth of Peter, [i] but it was not to be so; nor did the Holy Spirit give any hint of Peter presiding over the church in the entire New Testament! It was [b]Paul [/b] who said that " the care of ALL the churches comes upon me daily!" [/i](2 Cor 11:28). The Bible nullifies Catholic claims literally at every turn.
[/quote]

You do realize that one of the reasons the role of the Pope is so greatly stressed is because the Pope not only occupies the chair of Peter (is his successor) [i]but also[/i] has role of St. Paul (is his successor as well) since both men were leaders in the Church of Rome, and as such he continues on the mission of both men? Both men, where martyred tending the Church there and he continues their work. The popes take these roles very seriously. Most people tend to emphasize him as successor to Peter, but look at what he does in the role of Paul. The popes often write letters (encyclicals) to different parts of the Church and to the bishops, priests, and even the laity, or issue what is termed apostolic letters (which is often different from an encyclical). These roles (of Peter and Paul among the apostles) have not disappeared from the Church but rather continue on in her life. One can often see both Saints depicted on the mitre of the Pope (the hat he wears that denotes him as bishop and shepherd of the Church in succession to the apostles. This succession is talked about in letters by Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was part of the second Christian generation and studied under John the Evangelist. He was bishop and head of the Church in Antioch after Peter left and went to Rome). This was the best picture of one of the several miters that depict both Sts. Peter and Paul that I could find on google at the moment. However, both men are often depicted on the miters and serve as a reminder to the pope every time he puts one on what he has to live up to.
[img]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/benodette/Q4%2009%20-%20Q1%2010/Jan1MassAP2.jpg[/img]

Edited October 25, 2010 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[Micah]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1287984674' post='2182266']
You do realize that one of the reasons the role of the Pope is so greatly stressed is because the Pope not only occupies the chair of Peter (is his successor) [i]but also[/i] has role of St. Paul (is his successor as well) since both men were leaders in the Church of Rome, and as such he continues on the mission of both men? Both men, where martyred tending the Church there and he continues their work. The popes take these roles very seriously. Most people tend to emphasize him as successor to Peter, but look at what he does in the role of Paul. The popes often write letters (encyclicals) to different parts of the Church and to the bishops, priests, and even the laity, or issue what is termed apostolic letters (which is often different from an encyclical). These roles (of Peter and Paul among the apostles) have not disappeared from the Church but rather continue on in her life. One can often see both Saints depicted on the mitre of the Pope (the hat he wears that denotes him as bishop and shepherd of the Church in succession to the apostles. This succession is talked about in letters by Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was part of the second Christian generation and studied under John the Evangelist. He was bishop and head of the Church in Antioch after Peter left and went to Rome). This was the best picture of one of the several miters that depict both Sts. Peter and Paul that I could find on google at the moment. However, both men are often depicted on the miters and serve as a reminder to the pope every time he puts one on what he has to live up to.
[img]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/benodette/Q4%2009%20-%20Q1%2010/Jan1MassAP2.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Cool post. I never considered the Pope's continuity with St.Paul. Wish I could rep ya.

Heading out, God Bless Shady for the night. May he guide you in wisdom and understanding to the foot of his throne.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Micah

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287979989' post='2182252']
This is why Luther wanted to rip out James.

"18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."
[/quote]




[font="Times"][size="2"][size="3"]Your quickie commentary on Luther's view of the book of James [i]leaves much to be desired and leaves a false impression with the reader.[/i][/size]

[size="3"]M.L. said he cannot include James among his "[i][color="blue"]chief books though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him[/color][/i]." So the Roman Catholic emphasizes Luther's questioning of James, while I emphasize how Luther was not dogmatic: he allowed people the freedom to disagree with him. John Warwick Montgomery has rightly concluded:[/size]

[size="3"][size="2"]"Even in his strongest remarks on the four antilegomena (Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelation), Luther intersperses positive comments and makes quite plain that the question of how to treat these books must be answered by his readers for themselves. If he can speak of James as an "Epistle of straw," lacking the gospel, he can also say of it—simultaneously: "I praise it and hold it a good book, because it sets up no doctrine of men but vigorously promulgates God's law." [/size][/size]



[size="3"] I found the following info, where we discover Luther cited and preached from the book of James, something you obviously were unaware of:[/size]


[b] [/b]
[size="3"]"An interesting fact not usually mentioned is that even though Luther had doubts about James, these were not enough to deter him from preaching from the book. For instance, in 1536 Luther preached on James 1:16-21. [i]Sermon for the Fourth Sunday after Easter, "Two things there are which part men from the Gospel: one is angry impatience, and the other evil lust. Of these James speaks in this epistle[/i]." [/size]

[size="3"]It is apparent that Luther did find many good things in James worthy to be preached. Similarly, one can find Luther positively quoting from the book of James throughout his writings. Below are only a few examples, which span the length of his academic career:[/size]



[size="3"][b]Sermons On The First Epistle of St. Peter:[/b][/size]

[size="3"][size="2"]"[color="blue"]And there is no other Mediator than the Lord Christ, who is the Son of God. Therefore the faith of the Jews and the Turks is false. They say: "I believe that God created heaven and earth." The devil believes the same thing (cf. James 2:19), but it does not help him. For the Jews and the Turks have the audacity to come before God without Christ the Mediator[/color]."[/size]<a href="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn75" name="_ednref75" title="" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">[size="1"][75][/size] [/size]



[size="3"][b]That These Words Of Christ, "This Is My Body," Etc., Still Stand Firm Against The Fanatics[/b][/size]

[size="3"][size="2"]"[color="blue"]You see, the circumcision of Abraham [Gen. 17:10 ff.] is now an old dead thing and no longer necessary or useful. But if I were to say that God did not command it in its time, it would do me no good even if I believed the gospel. So St. James asserts, "Whoever offends in one point is guilty in all respects[/color]."[/size][url="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn76"][size="1"][76][/size][/url] [/size]



[size="3"][b]Lectures on Genesis:[/b][/size]

[size="3"][b]"[/b][color="blue"][size="2"]Thus God's testing is a fatherly one, for James says in his letter (1:13): "God is not a tempter for evil"; that is, He does not test in order that we may fear and hate Him like a tyrant but to the end that He may exercise and stir up faith and love in us. Satan, however, tempts for evil, in order to draw you away from God and to make you distrust and blaspheme God[/size][/color][size="2"]."[/size][url="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn77"][size="1"][77][/size][/url] [/size]



[size="3"][size="2"]"[color="blue"]Only let us be on our guard lest after we have once begun to pray, we immediately grow weary. But let us seek and let us cast all our care, misfortune, and affliction on God (1 Peter 5:7) and set before Him the examples of every kind of deliverance. Finally let us knock at the door with confidence and with incessant raps. Then we shall experience what James says (5:16): "The prayer of a righteous man has great power"; for it penetrates heaven and earth[/color]." [/size][url="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn78"][size="1"][78][/size][/url] [/size]



[size="3"][b]Commentary on Psalms[/b][/size]

[size="3"][color="blue"][size="2"]"James 1:2 says: "Count it all joy when you fall into various trials" (that is, into the pot of Moab). Therefore, on the contrary, regard it as every kind of grief if you fall into various joys (that is, the dining room and bed of Moab), as the same James says, James 5:1: "Come now, you rich, weep and howl in your miseries."[/size][/color][url="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn79"][size="1"][79][/size][/url] [/size]



[size="3"][color="blue"][size="2"]"But perfect as the man is who makes no mistakes in a single leaf (cf. James 3:2), more perfect is certainly he whose leaves are blooming and plentiful, but most perfect is he whose leaf does not fall off, who is worthy to have his thoughts and sayings deserve eternal remembrance and authority."[/size][/color][url="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn80"][size="1"][80][/size][/url] [/size]




[b]Commentary On Matthew[/b]
[size="3"][color="blue"][size="2"]"St. James also says (James 2:13): "Judgment without mercy will be spoken over the one who has shown no mercy." At the Last Day, therefore, Christ will also cite this lack of mercy as the worst injury done to Him, whatever we have done out of a lack of mercy."[/size][/color][url="http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#_edn81"][size="1"][81][/size][/url] [/size]





[/size][/font]

[Vincent Vega]

Oh sweet, simple Stormy. You always start like a normal human being, but you always sort of dissolve into your old, washed-up, recognisable self in no time.
You just aren't quick enough for us.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Catholicism is very simple. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Everything the Church, inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit, teaches helps to clarify and assist souls to a loving union with that Way. It's not an easy goal to accomplish. It can't be accomplished by human power; it requires grace. God, knowing the importance of the senses in our lives (being that we are both body and soul), willed to give this grace through physical signs (the Sacraments, sacramentals, pious practices encouraged by the Church). Our good works attract the grace of God. But the beauty of it is that God's grace is the beginning of those good works, it is what carries out those good works, and it is the end of those good works.

A bunch of rules? You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, brother. It's not about binding you down and complicating salvation. It's about shining light on the road to salvation, freeing us from sin so that we might truly follow the Way, know the Truth, and have new Life. If you have the proper ordering, everything makes sense. But if you're focusing on the means to the end, and don't give the end highest ranking... well, it ain't gonna make any sense. You'll be running into a brick wall.

Is salvation complicated? Nope. But it's difficult.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1287986607' post='2182273']
Catholicism is very simple. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Everything the Church, inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit, teaches helps to clarify and assist souls to a loving union with that Way. It's not an easy goal to accomplish. It can't be accomplished by human power; it requires grace. God, knowing the importance of the senses in our lives (being that we are both body and soul), willed to give this grace through physical signs (the Sacraments, sacramentals, pious practices encouraged by the Church). Our good works attract the grace of God. But the beauty of it is that God's grace is the beginning of those good works, it is what carries out those good works, and it is the end of those good works.

A bunch of rules? You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, brother. It's not about binding you down and complicating salvation. It's about shining light on the road to salvation, freeing us from sin so that we might truly follow the Way, know the Truth, and have new Life. If you have the proper ordering, everything makes sense. But if you're focusing on the means to the end, and don't give the end highest ranking... well, it ain't gonna make any sense. You'll be running into a brick wall.

Is salvation complicated? Nope. But it's difficult.
[/quote]
Very well said, and said in charity. While I know anecdotal evidence doesn't really count, I can say that I have more assurance as a Catholic than I did as a Southern Baptist, for there is a definite "map", if you will, as a Catholic. Not to mention that I know I don't have to go it alone or reinvent the wheel.

[Winchester]

So explaining what a word like "faith" means in the context of Christianity is bad.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1287974882' post='2182226']

You see, you've been brought up with only one side of the story and have been terribly deceived. And if you've been wrong all along on this issue, then perhaps you ought to ask yourself if you might be wrong on other things as well. [i]Don't just sit there and listen to what a priest tells you and assume the matter is settled![/i]
[/quote]
Well, I've read more than one Catholic work that talked about the problems those books had and the reluctance of many to accept them.


A great many people will fabricate stories and legends with good intent. Catholics are not above this, hence the legends about Martin Luther losing a wrestling match with a hedgehog dressed like the Cardinal of the Kremlin.

[Rebecca2009]

Speaking of Abraham, in James 2:24 it says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"

And v. 26. "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

The Bible does not support sola scriptura nor does it support sola fide

[Brother Adam]

I dont think I have ever seen that many argumentum ad hominems and ad nauseams from a fundamentalist before, which is naturally the downfall of fundamentalism based on its terrible literalistic interpretive principles. The real irony lies in that they cannot see that they are guilty of the very thing they accuse Catholics of over and over again. At the same time this is great practice for some of our budding apologists.

[sixpence]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1287986607' post='2182273']
Catholicism is very simple. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Everything the Church, inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit, teaches helps to clarify and assist souls to a loving union with that Way. It's not an easy goal to accomplish. It can't be accomplished by human power; it requires grace. God, knowing the importance of the senses in our lives (being that we are both body and soul), willed to give this grace through physical signs (the Sacraments, sacramentals, pious practices encouraged by the Church). Our good works attract the grace of God. But the beauty of it is that God's grace is the beginning of those good works, it is what carries out those good works, and it is the end of those good works.

A bunch of rules? You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, brother. It's not about binding you down and complicating salvation. It's about shining light on the road to salvation, freeing us from sin so that we might truly follow the Way, know the Truth, and have new Life. If you have the proper ordering, everything makes sense. But if you're focusing on the means to the end, and don't give the end highest ranking... well, it ain't gonna make any sense. You'll be running into a brick wall.

Is salvation complicated? Nope. But it's difficult.
[/quote]

this

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Shadyrest' timestamp='1287968245' post='2182186']
Catholicism complicates the gospel by not giving us a straight answer, and I'm sorry to say, you're a prime example.
[/quote]

where's your straight answer?

i know for a fact that you can't give it, without running into either being overly dogmatic, or without being too vague.
i'd be more than happy for you to prove me wrong.

that's the nature of what God requires of people's beliefs, it's a personal relationship somewhere in between dogmatic and vague.

[Guest Shadyrest]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1287981798' post='2182260']
I have, for your benefit, pulled a few examples of the importance of sound teaching which far outweigh the slight pericope you pulled out of context:

2 Thess 2: 15: [color="#001320"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"]So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.[/size][/font][/color]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"] [/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]1 Cor 11: 2: I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"] [/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]Titus 1: 9: He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"] [/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]Titus 2: 1: You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"] [/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]2 Tim 3: 14: But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,[/size][/color][/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"] [/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"] [/size][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#001320"][size="4"]Rather than fighting Christ's servants like Saul, you should be like the Eunuch who says, "How can I understand unless someone explains it to me" in the Acts of the Apostles. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by rejecting the fullness of truth. [/size][/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]


I am not denying the office of a teacher, which the Holy Spirit listed as one of the offices of the church (but unfortunately for you, conveniently forgot to mention the most important office of all.....
the papacy! 1 Cor 12:28).

But the [u]original[/u] complaint was that we all need a teacher...[i]period (as in "every circumstance", as if we could not understand a single word without someone looking over our shoulder). [/i]
[i]
[/i]
[i]Further, the example of the Eunuch does not prove your case. Why of course he needed someone to tell him who was it that was being spoken of in Isaiah. That was at the very infancy of the church. There was no N.T. to look back upon at that point. But we, being on the other side of the cross, can easily understand that it was the Messiah spoken of there, and do not necessarily need a teacher for that.
[/i]