Morality -- According To Me

[MichaelFilo]

I agree, though, America is largely composed of legalistic cultures and it translates into our tribunals. No disagreement about the rate of annulments, but an abuse does not make a thing right or wrong. For instance, medical abuse claims today are abused (doctors make mistakes, for instance) but you would not be in favor of banning people's right to bring suit against a doctor, would you?

Be careful thinking abuses of a system are the same as an argument for the rightness or wrongness of a thing.

Another example, we use our military aggressively around the world and I'd like to see that curbed, but I am not against having a military.

[thessalonian]

scfg,

I will grant you one thing. I think to many priests say "you might get an anullment but in order to get one you have to get a divorce by the state for legal reasons". Now there are instances where an anullment is likely. But the reason for getting a divorce should never be because "you might get an anullment". The Catechism clearly states that civil divorce is only tolerated as a means of protecting the children, either financially or protecting property that is rightfully theres from a parent who might try to get it. However it seems clear to me that marriage being a covenant, i.e. more than a contract, and contracts are not valid if entered under false pretense, then so may a marriage be invalid if entered under false pretense. I don't find this difficult to see. I do agree that priests encourage way to many anullments and therefore divorces.

Gerald

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1288059175' post='2182563']
I apologize for only replying to this post at this time, but I will make an effort to reply to the other posts later this week.



I guess I didn't write that as clearly as I could have. I wasn't trying to say that my views disagree with the old Baltimore Catechism I was saying that I have certain moral beliefs -- that you will never hear preached from the pulpit. Have you ever heard any of this preached from the pulpit? I haven't. Even my view on annulments doesn't vary much from the original Catholic Catechism. Very few were granted, and for only a few extreme situations. That's not the case anymore. Now something like 93 percent of the annulments applied for are granted. When I said that I didn't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches I meant that I don't agree with everything that I have heard Catholic priests preach in Mass (Now I can't really criticize the Catholic church here in Escondido. I admit that we have very good priests here at Saint Mary's.) And it's not just California that has a problem, the whole West Coast tends to have "liberal" Catholics.[/quote]
Actually, as a matter of fact I have heard those moral beliefs preached from the pulpit numerous times. I had the fortune to belong to good parishes, and realize that in too many places priests fail in their duty to preach what the Church in fact teaches, but it's false to say the Church no longer teaches sexual morality nor the indissolubility of marriage. I also went to a Catholic college in which these moral truths were clearly taught.

I know these are bad times in the Church, but you need to pay attention to what the Church teaches through the magisterium, rather than the bogus teachings of heretical liberal clergy and so-called "Catholic" groups which oppose the Church's teachings.

And I've heard that there are good parishes even on the West coast, though you may have to look harder to find them. (Unfortunately, I don't have the names of the parishes, but would have to contact those I know who are members.) I'd recommend looking for a FSSP parish (I currently belong to one in Dallas).



[quote]You're right. I'm not really a Catholic. I wouldn't recommend that anybody base their morality on the brilliant things that I say. If I had to make a recommendation -- and this is coming from a lost Catholic -- I would recommend that they base their morality on the old Baltimore Catechism. Of course that would mean putting more emphasis on attending Mass and more reverence for the Mass -- which I admit to lacking.
[/quote]
If you don't believe in the sacraments or the mass, why should people attend or have reverence?
Jesus Christ Himself said unless you eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, you have no life in you.

And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as God and Savior, nor in life after death, why should you worry so much about whether people are practicing Christian sexual morality?

While I believe that sexual morality is good on its own, most people won't be inclined to care about Christian morality without believing in Christ and His saving message.
And if you yourself don't believe in Christ's authority, it's doubtful others will see any reason to follow "morality according to Richard" instead of "morality according to Bob" or "morality according to Sue."

Just saying you may want to look for beams in your own eye before going about removing the specks in other's.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1288286485' post='2183238']
scfg,

I will grant you one thing. I think to many priests say "you might get an anullment but in order to get one you have to get a divorce by the state for legal reasons". Now there are instances where an anullment is likely. But the reason for getting a divorce should never be because "you might get an anullment". The Catechism clearly states that civil divorce is only tolerated as a means of protecting the children, either financially or protecting property that is rightfully theres from a parent who might try to get it. However it seems clear to me that marriage being a covenant, i.e. more than a contract, and contracts are not valid if entered under false pretense, then so may a marriage be invalid if entered under false pretense. I don't find this difficult to see. I do agree that priests encourage way to many anullments and therefore divorces.

Gerald
[/quote]

I agree. I've read that Catholic divorces really took off after Vatican II and the implementation of canon 1095 (The "Loose canon"). Apparently making annulments easier -- led to more divorces..

And as I understand it divorces have been down the last four years or so because of the economy.. People just can't afford to divorce now so more couples are working out their differences rather than divorcing. It makes me wonder if divorce is more common among the rich than the poor.

Edited October 29, 2010 by southern california guy

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1288288446' post='2183245']

If you don't believe in the sacraments or the mass, why should people attend or have reverence?
Jesus Christ Himself said unless you eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, you have no life in you.

[/quote]

I suppose the main thing I've always felt that I got out of the Mass was the sermon. If the sermon was good I felt like I got something good out of the Mass.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1288288446' post='2183245']

And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as God and Savior, nor in life after death, why should you worry so much about whether people are practicing Christian sexual morality?

[/quote]

You can still believe that what he taught was the word of God whether he was literally God himself or not. How do you resolve his hanging on the cross and saying "My god my god, why have you forsaken me?"

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1288288446' post='2183245']

While I believe that sexual morality is good on its own, most people won't be inclined to care about Christian morality without believing in Christ and His saving message.
And if you yourself don't believe in Christ's authority, it's doubtful others will see any reason to follow "morality according to Richard" instead of "morality according to Bob" or "morality according to Sue."

Just saying you may want to look for beams in your own eye before going about removing the specks in other's.
[/quote]

I just stated my opinion. That's why it's "Morality according to Richard". People can live any way that they want. I might not agree, but who cares?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1288311292' post='2183326']
You can still believe that what he taught was the word of God whether he was literally God himself or not. How do you resolve his hanging on the cross and saying "My god my god, why have you forsaken me?"
[/quote]

I resolve it by recognizing that it was the first line of Psalm 22, which was a prophecy about Himself. You're only looking at the first line. Read how it ends. What he was saying didn't end with his death. Don't join the people who mistakenly said, "Look, he is calling Elias!" There is far more going on there. He became sin for us, and so he was speaking on behalf, groaning as all mankind did from the Fall onward. He showed he knew our suffering, but gave us hope.

[sup]1[/sup] My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

[sup]2[/sup] O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

[sup]3[/sup] Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14208a"]a[/url]][/sup]

[sup]4[/sup] In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

[sup]5[/sup] They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

[sup]6[/sup] But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

[sup]7[/sup] All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

[sup]8[/sup] "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

[sup]9[/sup] Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

[sup]10[/sup] From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

[sup]11[/sup] Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

[sup]12[/sup] Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

[sup]13[/sup] Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

[sup]14[/sup] I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

[sup]15[/sup] My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14220b"]b[/url]][/sup] in the dust of death.

[sup]16[/sup] Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14221c"]c[/url]][/sup] my hands and my feet.

[sup]17[/sup] I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

[sup]18[/sup] They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

[sup]19[/sup] But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

[sup]20[/sup] Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

[sup]21[/sup] Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14226d"]d[/url]][/sup] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

[sup]22[/sup] I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

[sup]23[/sup] You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

[sup]24[/sup] For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

[sup]25[/sup] From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14230e"]e[/url]][/sup] will I fulfill my vows.

[sup]26[/sup] The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

[sup]27[/sup] All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

[sup]28[/sup] for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

[sup]29[/sup] All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

[sup]30[/sup] Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

[sup]31[/sup] They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV"]http://www.biblegate...+22&version=NIV[/url]

Edited October 29, 2010 by Sternhauser

[southern california guy]

Wow, I've never hear this argument before. I've read this Psalm, but I never made the connection.

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1288312229' post='2183331']
I resolve it by recognizing that it was the first line of Psalm 22, which was a prophecy about Himself. You're only looking at the first line. Read how it ends. What he was saying didn't end with his death. Don't join the people who mistakenly said, "Look, he is calling Elias!" There is far more going on there. He became sin for us, and so he was speaking on behalf, groaning as all mankind did from the Fall onward. He showed he knew our suffering, but gave us hope.

[sup]1[/sup] My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

[sup]2[/sup] O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

[sup]3[/sup] Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14208a"]a[/url]][/sup]

[sup]4[/sup] In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

[sup]5[/sup] They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

[sup]6[/sup] But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

[sup]7[/sup] All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

[sup]8[/sup] "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

[sup]9[/sup] Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

[sup]10[/sup] From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

[sup]11[/sup] Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

[sup]12[/sup] Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

[sup]13[/sup] Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

[sup]14[/sup] I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

[sup]15[/sup] My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14220b"]b[/url]][/sup] in the dust of death.

[sup]16[/sup] Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14221c"]c[/url]][/sup] my hands and my feet.

[sup]17[/sup] I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

[sup]18[/sup] They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

[sup]19[/sup] But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

[sup]20[/sup] Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

[sup]21[/sup] Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14226d"]d[/url]][/sup] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

[sup]22[/sup] I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

[sup]23[/sup] You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

[sup]24[/sup] For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

[sup]25[/sup] From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14230e"]e[/url]][/sup] will I fulfill my vows.

[sup]26[/sup] The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

[sup]27[/sup] All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

[sup]28[/sup] for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

[sup]29[/sup] All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

[sup]30[/sup] Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

[sup]31[/sup] They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV"]http://www.biblegate...+22&version=NIV[/url]
[/quote]

Edited October 29, 2010 by southern california guy

[thessalonian]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287943054' post='2182079']
One more thing, I teeter on atheism. I'm not sure that there is life after death. Just death at the end of life makes the most logical sense... But I still like the philosophy taught in the Bible. It seems to me that people are so determined to rationalize bad sexual behavior that they overlook much of the good philosophy taught in the Bible.

[/quote]

Interesting. Jesus had a good moral philosophy but was a liar and lunatic.

[Destroyer of Heretics]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1287928665' post='2182030']
People kill other people all the time. In fact, St. John says that "anyone who hates his brother is a murderer" (1John 3:15). How often is the word "hate" thrown about by people who've never physically killed anyone? You hear it all the time. "Oh, I hate so-and-so."

I know someone who lives in Latin America who has a large family. He has his wife (whom he's been with for decades), but he has children from other woman. He's a really "good" person in a worldly sense. He takes care of all his kids, he takes care of his wife, he's generous with everybody. His adulteries are sort of looked at as a part of the cultural masculinity there. I don't imagine that his wife "likes" his adulteries, but she doesn't leave him. As I said, he's a very "good" man in a worldly sense. Nobody would say anything bad about him. But what will Christ say when he dies?

I read an interesting suggestion before that the greatest "scandal" in Christianity is Christ's commandment to forgive your enemies. That REALLY "offends" people. I don't think people are as offended by the "family morality" that you are referring to. They expect that kind of morality to be preached, even if they don't live by it. What they are offended by is the higher Way that Christ revealed. They are offended by the idea that hatred is murder. They are offended by the idea that simply lusting after a woman is adultery. And they are supremely offended by the idea that we must forgive our enemies.
[/quote]## Forgiveness does not make sense - STM you got it in one.

IMO, what one does is far more important than whether one bothers with sexual morality. Which is closer to what Jesus actually said:
[list][*]a Good Samaritan with a mistress or two on the side[/list]or:[list][*]someone of irreproachable sexual morality who does not lift a finger to help the poor[/list]Jesus does not blame the Samaritaness for her marital irregularities - but He is ferocious to the "pious people". And it was the "pious people" - not the "accursed" crowd who did not keep the Law - who plotted His destruction. I think that is also a scandal - that the "pious people" are often the most bitterly opposed to Christ & his followers. The people who are most shocked by recent scandals are often atheists - not Catholics. The reaction of atheists is far healthier, because evil is to be condemned, not excused; and too much of what has been said on the other side is excuse, not condemnation of evil.

Jesus was not a "family values" person - He was a family breaker; if anyone today did as Jesus did in calling Andrew, Peter, James & John, would such a person not be severely criticised ? If one reads the gospels without the distorting medium of 1900 years of Christianity, the effects can be startling.

[Destroyer of Heretics]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1288312229' post='2183331']
I resolve it by recognizing that it was the first line of Psalm 22, which was a prophecy about Himself. You're only looking at the first line. Read how it ends. What he was saying didn't end with his death. Don't join the people who mistakenly said, "Look, he is calling Elias!" There is far more going on there. He became sin for us, and so he was speaking on behalf, groaning as all mankind did from the Fall onward. He showed he knew our suffering, but gave us hope.

[sup]1[/sup] My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

[sup]2[/sup] O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

[sup]3[/sup] Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14208a"]a[/url]][/sup]

[sup]4[/sup] In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

[sup]5[/sup] They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

[sup]6[/sup] But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

[sup]7[/sup] All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

[sup]8[/sup] "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

[sup]9[/sup] Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

[sup]10[/sup] From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

[sup]11[/sup] Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

[sup]12[/sup] Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

[sup]13[/sup] Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

[sup]14[/sup] I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

[sup]15[/sup] My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14220b"]b[/url]][/sup] in the dust of death.

[sup]16[/sup] Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14221c"]c[/url]][/sup] my hands and my feet.

[sup]17[/sup] I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

[sup]18[/sup] They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

[sup]19[/sup] But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

[sup]20[/sup] Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

[sup]21[/sup] Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14226d"]d[/url]][/sup] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

[sup]22[/sup] I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

[sup]23[/sup] You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

[sup]24[/sup] For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

[sup]25[/sup] From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14230e"]e[/url]][/sup] will I fulfill my vows.

[sup]26[/sup] The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

[sup]27[/sup] All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

[sup]28[/sup] for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

[sup]29[/sup] All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

[sup]30[/sup] Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

[sup]31[/sup] They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV"]http://www.biblegate...+22&version=NIV[/url]
[/quote]## [font="Georgia"][size="3"]Verses 26 onwards are very striking, because they have to do with:
[/size][/font][list][*][font="Georgia"][size="3"]the Kingship of God[/size][/font][*][font="Georgia"][size="3"]the worship of God[/size][/font][*][font="Georgia"][size="3"]feasting[/size][/font][/list][font="Georgia"][size="3"]And all of these are themes in Matthew's Gospel, where Psalm 22.1 is quoted.
[/size][/font][list][*][font="Georgia"][size="3"]Verse 27 for instance recalls Matthew 2 - where the Infant Jesus receives homage from the Magi who come with gifts for Him: see Psalm 72[/size][/font][*][font="Georgia"][size="3"]Feasting is related to the theme of the Messianic Banquet, which in the NT is identified with the "wedding-feast of the Lamb"; it has to do with the marriage of God & Israel, & with the feast of the end-time, at which all will be satisfied. [/size][/font][/list][font="Georgia"][size="3"]The OT is often treated in this allusive way in the gospels - Mark 4.11-12 quotes Isaiah 6: which refers to God as King; the Parable of the Lost Sheep in Luke 15 probably refers to Psalm 119.176; & Psalm 119 is devoted to the praise of the Law.

Psalm 22.25 would suit the theology of Matthew like a glove, becauise this is the gospel in which the Christian "great assembly", the Church, is emphasised. Verse 22 is what Jesus has been doing, & it is what He commissions the disciples to do at the close of the gospel.

So there are many connections between the contents of the Psalm, its fittingness in the description of the Passion, & the theological presentation in this Gospel of who Jesus is. It's not an objection to faith in Him - it can seem to be one, if one lacks faith in Jesus as Messiah; throughout the gospel, people are divided into those who have it, & those who do not have it. Matthew 16:13 ff. is important for that reason, for it shows how Peter is given this faith, & from what source. Christians, having this faith, would therefore see in Psalm 22 not a cry of despair, but a witness to the identity of Jesus: the desolation of Jesus is part of the meaning, but not the whole of it.

[/size][/font]

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1288311292' post='2183326']
I suppose the main thing I've always felt that I got out of the Mass was the sermon. If the sermon was good I felt like I got something good out of the Mass.[/quote]
The Mass is the the Most Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and His offering of Himself to us as real food and real drink. A good sermon is nice, but it doesn't change the central important reality of the Mass.
What you or anyone else "feels like" is irrelevant to that truth. Christ Himself is really present in the Eucharist at the Mass in hidden form, and that's what's important.
If you don't believe that, you make Christ out to be either a fool or a liar (see John 6), and then there's no reason for us to pay attention to what else he taught.



[quote]You can still believe that what he taught was the word of God whether he was literally God himself or not. How do you resolve his hanging on the cross and saying "My god my god, why have you forsaken me?"[/quote]
Looks like Sternhauser beat me to the answer there. Christ claimed equality with God Himself, and for this reason was condemned to death by the Jews for blasphemy.

Why should anyone believe Jesus taught the word of God regarding marriage, etc., if He was in fact lying or deluded about much of the rest of His teachings?

Jesus Christ was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. If He's not a liar or a lunatic, then He is indeed Our Lord, and we are obligated to follow [i]all[/i] His teachings, not just those which personally appeal to us.

If you willfully disagree with or disregard the teachings of Christ and His Church regarding His Divinity and saving mission and the Sacraments, then you are no better than those who follow what they like about Christ, but disregard His teachings on marriage and sexual morality.

[quote]
I just stated my opinion. That's why it's "Morality according to Richard". People can live any way that they want. I might not agree, but who cares?[/quote]
Indeed. There's no reason anyone should give a rat's behind about "morality according to Richard" (or "morality according to Socrates" or "morality according to Sternhauser").

The only thing we should ultimately be concerned with is Morality according to God, which is why Jesus's teachings have moral authority.
If morality is subjective, and varies with each person, then it's meaningless.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1288395197' post='2183543']
Christ claimed equality with God Himself, and for this reason was condemned to death by the Jews for blasphemy.
[/quote]

Where is this taught in the Bible?

[MithLuin]

John 19: 5-7

[quote]Pilate said to them, "Behold, the Man!"

So when the chief priests and the officers saw Him, they cried out saying, "Crucify, crucify!"

Pilate said to them, "Take Him yourselves and crucify Him, for I find no guilt in Him."

The Jews answered him, [b]"We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."[/b] [/quote]

Jesus spent a good bit of chapters 15-17 of John saying things like "The Father and I are one; whoever has seen me has seen the Father," etc. It would be very, very, very difficult to read the gospel of John and not conclude that Jesus claimed divinity for himself.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1288408467' post='2183585']
John 19: 5-7



Jesus spent a good bit of chapters 15-17 of John saying things like "The Father and I are one; whoever has seen me has seen the Father," etc. It would be very, very, very difficult to read the gospel of John and not conclude that Jesus claimed divinity for himself.
[/quote]

I don't know it just doesn't seem to me that Jesus was being explicit about it. There's a bit of a conflict about it right? The Jews believed a Messiah was going to come, however they didn't believe that the Messiah was god. They believed that god could never be a man -- that god was just too different. And Jesus was Jewish right? I'm a little confused as to exactly what he was saying. I curious to see the Greek. And I actually have a Greek Hebrew study Bible so I'll have to check it out. I have a lot of Bibles and books on religion. I'm a bit of a contradiction.

Edited October 30, 2010 by southern california guy

[MichaelFilo]

I think you don't want to assent to the Catholic Faith, at the end of the day.

Jesus Christ was accepted as God by the early Church. I'd imagine they would have a better idea of what Jesus said and meant. The Mass, which is referenced in the letters, is, by it's nature related to the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Muslims actively deny Jesus' Divinity because there is no question that he IS Divine for any religious Christian. Only Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus' Divinity.

Exodus 3:14
[quote]
God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you[/quote]

John 8:58
[quote]"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"[/quote]


See, what I think is that you will have to give something up essential to surrender yourself to God and his Church, either some hurt, or some sin, or some pride, that it makes it difficult for you to admit Christ's sovereignty and the Church he ordained. I am not convinced for a moment you don't think Jesus is Lord. What I think, if I may go out on a limb, is that you are afraid of confessing it with your lips and believing in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead (Romans 10:9) but that is the path to salvation.