Morality -- According To Me

[Jaime]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1287948217' post='2182115']
When we say that too many annulments are being granted, we imply that many of the annulments are in error. I don't believe that. I believe that so many annulments are being granted simply because too many weddings are being done where no real marriage is occurring. This is due to poor catechism, poor marriage preparation, pressure on priests to marry those they have doubts about, and a culture that teaches young people that marriage isn't forever. If you don't accept that a marriage is forever, then you can't make a valid marriage bond.
[/quote]

You are one of the most awesomest people ever

[CatherineM]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1287951639' post='2182131']
You are one of the most awesomest people ever
[/quote]
SShhhhh. My husband's in the room.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1287947228' post='2182107']
Remember, he lives in California. The Catholics he meets there may not be the most orthodox, if I recall some of his initial posts correctly when he first joined here.
[/quote]

True, true. He mentioned Washington state too. I know there are places where many of the parishioners (and even the priests) are a bit 'out there' when it comes to what the Church actually teaches. So, if you've met people who call themselves Catholic, but then are in major disagreement with the Church, I can see how you would be a bit jaded about the Church practicing what she preaches.

Still, to then come here and post a bunch of things that are actually perfectly in line with Catholic doctrine and say 'I disagree with the Church' is a bit silly, since we can turn around and say, 'Tough. The Church agrees with you (for the most part).'

[havok579257]

i believe everything the catholic church teaches. i am a catholic.

anyone who does not believe and agree with everything the catholic church teaches is not a catholic, its that simple.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1287972323' post='2182209']
i believe everything the catholic church teaches. i am a catholic.
[/quote]
Ditto (and bears repeating). If I find something that makes me think I'm in disagreement, I ask questions and research to understand the position of the Church, and I choose to follow it regardless of understanding.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1287938294' post='2182052']
I sincerely don't mean this as any sort of attack, but just as a sincere question:

You have commented in the past that you've looked into other denominations/religions (various forms of protestants, mormons, etc), but how much time have you spent learning what the Church TRULY teaches and not just what some priests did that you didn't like (like Dignity Masses)? I mean, some of this stuff, after you say you'll never hear this in a Church, are things that I HAVE heard in Church, and some of it seems like a misunderstanding of what the Church ACTUALLY teaches that you're against, not the actual Church teaching.

Like I said, I'm not trying to attack you, but I think it may do you well to look further into what the Church teaches instead of rejecting some things out of hand.
[/quote]

MS, I agree with your line of questioning and SoCal not an attack on you but I do wonder if you TRULY understand what it means to be Catholic. I ask that because it seems to me that what you are interpreting as Catholic living and Catholic teaching is in fact not.

May the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth.

Edited October 25, 2010 by HopefulBride

[Lil Red]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287941442' post='2182064'] [b]Why doesn't the Catholic church believe in marriage counseling?????[/b][/quote]
it does.

[Ed Normile]

The church has marriage counseling, it also demands pre-cana classes before marriage. I liken it to the person who gets all the way through school and still is ignorant of much they should have learned. People are not perfect, that said the church is made up of people from the hiearchy to the pew setters, and God knows us all. I know one thing though, you are not supposed to as a catholic, particpate in any other religious meeting as in a church, it implies a communion with that faith we do not share. This in effect lessens your belief in the primacy of the Catholic Church. SoCalGuy, you seem to have some issues with the church, thats between you and God but I promise I will pray for your fully joining in the Communion of the Saints.

ed

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287880900' post='2181934']
I don't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches. I doubt few Catholics do. The way I look at it morality has more to do with marriage kids and families than almost anything else. I doubt few people would be offended by the commandment "Thou shall not kill" -- because none of us will ever do that. The sorts of things that we might do are: Have sex out of marriage, get a girl pregnant outside of marriage, break our marriage vows -- after having kids, and cheat on our wives. As I see it the real problem is how these sins affect the kids who are created by them.

So here is my version of morality (You'll never hear this in church -- ever.) Preachy but direct -- and this is a religious forum right?

1. [b] Homosexuality is a potentially destructive perversion[/b]. And it is condemned in the bible by the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. We must never condone it in any fashion. The Catholic church has a huge problem with homosexuality. The Vatican needs to take a stand against homosexuality -- absolutely no homosexual priests, and absolutely no "Dignity" Masses.

2. [b]Premarital sex is wrong[/b]. Birth control isn't perfect and getting pregnant outside of a secure marriage is a BIG DEAL. It's a HUGE extra responsibility for the woman and the child always suffers as a result. If the birth control works sex is viewed with less reverence and less intimacy is involved. I believe that people who engage in premarital sex are more likely to have affairs after marriage -- and less likely to stay married.

3. [b]Divorce is very destructive[/b]. We need to be careful about who we marry. The kids pay the highest price. A marriage is important because it provides security for the kids. This is what is unique about a heterosexual union -- kids result, and families are formed. When you divorce you put your kids in the same position as if you'd never married and separated. Kids are better served by parents who never marry -- and never separate, than parents who marry and divorce.

4. [b]Catholic Annulment is exactly the same as a divorce[/b]. The vows are broken, the parents separate, and the kids are in EXACTLY the same position as any kids whose parents have divorced. The man and woman are NOT the same as people who've never married. They are not virgins, they have slept and lived together as husband and wife, they have had kids, and they have broken the marriage vows and commitment to one another -- that they took at the Catholic marriage. Anybody who thinks that an annulment is EXACTLY the same as never being married is an idiot. It's only the same from the perspective of the Catholic church, and in terms of being able to marry within the Catholic church. The divorcee's who got an annulment are much more likely to get divorced when the marry for the second, third, fourth, fifth.. time.

5. [b]Affairs are obviously very wrong[/b]. Affairs can result in divorce -- which can hurt the kids, the husband, the wife. It's the sort of thing that jeopardizes the marriage. If there is a problem with intimacy, or attention, a husband and a wife should be able to discuss the problem. Hey if you can't be open with your husband or wife than who can you be open with??

6. [b]Married people should view themselves a "WE" rather than "ME"[/b]. I know I've never been married, but I've had friends who complained to me about how they did so much in the marriage -- or at home and how their wife/husband did so little. They were totally thinking in self-centered selfish terms. My friends in good marriages never even seemed to think about themselves as "ME" or "I". Doesn't the bible say that in a marriage the two people cleave and become one?
[/quote]
You've proven that you yourself have little clue what the Church actually teaches on sexual morality and marriage.

The Church in fact agrees with you on all but #4. I'd agree that annulments are probably handed out to leniently these days, but that does not mean there is not a place for them. For instance when one partner enters into the marriage deceived by the other who had no intention of actually fulfilling the marriage vows.

Your idea that the Church is okay with homosexual acts (or premarital sex, for that matter) is completely bogus. The Church has always clearly taught in all the catechisms and other teachings that homosexual activity, fornication, and adultery are all mortal sins.
That's where you need to go if you want to actually know where the Church stands on these issues.

From the CCC:
[b]"2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young."

"Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."[/b]


Here's a letter to the bishops written by the current Pope when he was prefect of the CDF:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html"]CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS[/url]

[quote]Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option.[b] It is not.[/b][/quote]

Sure, you can find dissident fruitcake priests, and self-proclaimed "Catholic" groups (particularly on the Left Coast) who oppose the Church's moral dogmas on these issues, but Cardinal Ratzinger makes clear in his letter that they are in fact opposed to the truth taught by the Church.
[quote]Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity. Those within the Church who argue in this fashion often have close ties with those with similar views outside it. These latter groups are guided by a vision opposed to the truth about the human person, which is fully disclosed in the mystery of Christ. They reflect, even if not entirely consciously, a materialistic ideology which denies the transcendent nature of the human person as well as the supernatural vocation of every individual.

The Church's ministers must ensure that homosexual persons in their care will not be misled by this point of view, so profoundly opposed to the teaching of the Church. But the risk is great and there are many who seek to create confusion regarding the Church's position, and then to use that confusion to their own advantage.[/quote]




[quote]Anyway that's about it for me. I couldn't care less if somebody goes to Mass, Confession, or views the Host literally as the body of Christ. Those aren't even moral issues to me. I couldn't care less about a persons declaration of faith -- like you see among the Protestants. I think that you can easily see what a person believes by how they live. And I'm not afraid to "judge" -- form an opinion -- based upon what I see (That's not the same as damning someone to hell).

Heck I have never even been confirmed, and I miss Mass all the time, and I can't remember the last time I went to confession. Yeah, I'll probably go to Mass tomorrow, but I like the Catholic church here in Escondido. Or I might try a service at a Protestant church -- like the Nazarene (My little sister is a Nazarene).

Anyway that's morality according to me (Richard). What do you guys hold as important? What are the important moral beliefs that define you?[/quote]
That statement there shows very serious problems, and that you are not Catholic in any meaningful sense.

Christ's presence in the Eucharist and His actions in the other sacraments are essential to Catholic belief, not peripherals. Christ tells us solemnly if we don't eat His Body and drink His Blood, we have not life in us.

If Christ and His saving actions are not important to you, what is the point of being Catholic, or being Christian at all?
Faith in Christ needs to come first. You have things completely backwards with regards to the Faith.

It seems you view the main purpose of Christian religion as getting people to keep their pantaloons on. But if that's all there is to it, and theology is totally unimportant, what's the point?

If Christian theology is bogus, why bother with preaching sexual morality in the first place? (I'm not in anyway trying to downgrade the importance of sexual morality, but saying you need to put it in proper perspective.)


The trouble with your approach is that there are millions of other people out there with their own "morality according to me," which more often than not is perfectly okay with fornication, homosexuality, or whatever perverse sexual practice you can think of.
If the objective truth of the Christian Faith is irrelevant, by what authority should anyone follow "morality according to Richard" instead of "morality according to someone else"?

Without a firm objective basis for morality, it too easily becomes subjective. People just do whatever they like.

[southern california guy]

I apologize for only replying to this post at this time, but I will make an effort to reply to the other posts later this week.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1288030945' post='2182406']
You've proven that you yourself have little clue what the Church actually teaches on sexual morality and marriage.

The Church in fact agrees with you on all but #4. I'd agree that annulments are probably handed out to leniently these days, but that does not mean there is not a place for them. For instance when one partner enters into the marriage deceived by the other who had no intention of actually fulfilling the marriage vows.

Your idea that the Church is okay with homosexual acts (or premarital sex, for that matter) is completely bogus. The Church has always clearly taught in all the catechisms and other teachings that homosexual activity, fornication, and adultery are all mortal sins.
That's where you need to go if you want to actually know where the Church stands on these issues.
[/quote]

I guess I didn't write that as clearly as I could have. I wasn't trying to say that my views disagree with the old Baltimore Catechism I was saying that I have certain moral beliefs -- that you will never hear preached from the pulpit. Have you ever heard any of this preached from the pulpit? I haven't. Even my view on annulments doesn't vary much from the original Catholic Catechism. Very few were granted, and for only a few extreme situations. That's not the case anymore. Now something like 93 percent of the annulments applied for are granted. When I said that I didn't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches I meant that I don't agree with everything that I have heard Catholic priests preach in Mass (Now I can't really criticize the Catholic church here in Escondido. I admit that we have very good priests here at Saint Mary's.) And it's not just California that has a problem, the whole West Coast tends to have "liberal" Catholics.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287880900' post='2181934']
Anyway that's about it for me. I couldn't care less if somebody goes to Mass, Confession, or views the Host literally as the body of Christ. Those aren't even moral issues to me. I couldn't care less about a persons declaration of faith -- like you see among the Protestants. I think that you can easily see what a person believes by how they live. And I'm not afraid to "judge" -- form an opinion -- based upon what I see (That's not the same as damning someone to hell).

Heck I have never even been confirmed, and I miss Mass all the time, and I can't remember the last time I went to confession. Yeah, I'll probably go to Mass tomorrow, but I like the Catholic church here in Escondido. Or I might try a service at a Protestant church -- like the Nazarene (My little sister is a Nazarene).

Anyway that's morality according to me (Richard). What do you guys hold as important? What are the important moral beliefs that define you?
[/quote]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1288030945' post='2182406']
That statement there shows very serious problems, and that you are not Catholic in any meaningful sense.

Christ's presence in the Eucharist and His actions in the other sacraments are essential to Catholic belief, not peripherals. Christ tells us solemnly if we don't eat His Body and drink His Blood, we have not life in us.

If Christ and His saving actions are not important to you, what is the point of being Catholic, or being Christian at all?
Faith in Christ needs to come first. You have things completely backwards with regards to the Faith.

It seems you view the main purpose of Christian religion as getting people to keep their pantaloons on. But if that's all there is to it, and theology is totally unimportant, what's the point?

If Christian theology is bogus, why bother with preaching sexual morality in the first place? (I'm not in anyway trying to downgrade the importance of sexual morality, but saying you need to put it in proper perspective.)


The trouble with your approach is that there are millions of other people out there with their own "morality according to me," which more often than not is perfectly okay with fornication, homosexuality, or whatever perverse sexual practice you can think of.
If the objective truth of the Christian Faith is irrelevant, by what authority should anyone follow "morality according to Richard" instead of "morality according to someone else"?

Without a firm objective basis for morality, it too easily becomes subjective. People just do whatever they like.
[/quote]

You're right. I'm not really a Catholic. I wouldn't recommend that anybody base their morality on the brilliant things that I say. If I had to make a recommendation -- and this is coming from a lost Catholic -- I would recommend that they base their morality on the old Baltimore Catechism. Of course that would mean putting more emphasis on attending Mass and more reverence for the Mass -- which I admit to lacking.

Edited October 26, 2010 by southern california guy

[organwerke]

SCG, I think that some of your ideas are not too different from the Church ideas, but I also think that you ignore many things and concrete real situations when you write.
About annullments, for example, it is not true that it is the same thing of a divorce.
I do an example.
Last year I had a coworker with a son, and during a coworkers dinner I heard her speaking of her idea of marriage. She was divorced. She clairly said she couldn't imagine a committment forever: she had a good relationship with her ex-husband, and she still has and is friend of him, but at some point she realized that her story was ended and she thought the best thing to do was to divorce. She was still looking for a relation, but she admitted she couldn't imagine a relation for the life.
I think that her thought is extremely representative of what divorce is. Persons who think that you stay in a relationship with the idea that it is not forver, with the idea that when things don't go as you want, or simply when you get bored in your relation, you can divorce and begin another relation that probably will end again.

Now, the attitude of a person who gets married with the idea that marriage is not a committment for the life is already a condition for a marriage is invalid.

And it is not rare that there are husbands/wives that ask for an annullment because they got married with that kind of person: they believed in their commitment but they have been left by a person who did not.

Another situation may be that of persons who were forced (physically or psicologically) to get married against their will.
Another (and it is frequent too) is that of persons who discover that their partners are homosexuals/have homosexuals tendecies or relationships.
Another is the situation of persons that do not want to have children: this makes the marriage invalid because one of the first requirements for a marriage to be valid is to be open to life.

There can be many other cases.
In my first hand experience I could say that I've concretely seen that there are many differences between a divorce and an annullment (also the fact that an annulmment usually requires much more time than a divorce, and of course during this time a catholic is bound to live chastely, can't live with another man/woman etc.).

But I agree with you in a thing: that, even if an annullment is obtained, in the concrete situation, it is not at all the same thing as if a person never got married and this is an undeniable truth.

[Deacon Joe]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287943496' post='2182083']
I have to pose the question, [b]"Could the Catholic church save many of the Catholic marriages -- that end in divorce and annulment -- with counseling?"[/b]
[/quote]

I don't know what happens where u are because we absolutely do counsel partners who are considering a divorce and/ or annulment in my Diocese. Most won't change but a few have. We have a special program for that purpose.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287886456' post='2181961']
But the Catholic church[b] IS[/b] the modern Catholic church so my rationalization is a little stupid...
[/quote]

Maybe the Church of Washington is the "modern Catholic Church" but it is always helpful to remember that Catholic means Universal. In fact, it means a bit more than that. Kata holon (the greek from which we get Catholic) means "according to the whole" and the Church as a whole (in which I would note that though we are separate from them the Eastern Orthodox are part of the Church) is not the "modern Church" as you describe it. One can see this in the documents put out by the Church.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

(Sorry for some reason it wouldn't let me edit)
Also:

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1288059175' post='2182563']
I wasn't trying to say that my views disagree with the old Baltimore Catechism I was saying that I have certain moral beliefs -- that you will never hear preached from the pulpit. Have you ever heard any of this preached from the pulpit? I haven't.
[/quote]

I actually have heard these things preached from the pulpit and I was taught them in school (except for your claim that annulments are no different from divorce). The Jesuits at my home parish in New Orleans preached on the evils of contraception and defended Humanae Vitae, went with parishoners to pray in front of the abortion clinic on the weekends, and lectured on the disordered nature of homosexual acts. I know that in other parts of the country the Jesuits aren't the model of orthodoxy to say the least, but back home many of them were (in fact it was the Dominicans and Franciscans who were off their rockers back home, and well the benedictans were pretty solid too but we rarely interacted with them since they were in their monastery). There were also many good dioceasen priests who did the same things back home.

[MithLuin]

I will also vouch for the priests of the diocese of Arlington, VA, who frequently preach such things from the pulpit.

The Church in America tends to think of ourselves as THE Catholic Church, but we're more of an anomaly than anything.

Edited October 26, 2010 by MithLuin