Morality -- According To Me

[southern california guy]

I don't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches. I doubt few Catholics do. The way I look at it morality has more to do with marriage kids and families than almost anything else. I doubt few people would be offended by the commandment "Thou shall not kill" -- because none of us will ever do that. The sorts of things that we might do are: Have sex out of marriage, get a girl pregnant outside of marriage, break our marriage vows -- after having kids, and cheat on our wives. As I see it the real problem is how these sins affect the kids who are created by them.

So here is my version of morality (You'll never hear this in church -- ever.) Preachy but direct -- and this is a religious forum right?

1. [b] Homosexuality is a potentially destructive perversion[/b]. And it is condemned in the bible by the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. We must never condone it in any fashion. The Catholic church has a huge problem with homosexuality. The Vatican needs to take a stand against homosexuality -- absolutely no homosexual priests, and absolutely no "Dignity" Masses.

2. [b]Premarital sex is wrong[/b]. Birth control isn't perfect and getting pregnant outside of a secure marriage is a BIG DEAL. It's a HUGE extra responsibility for the woman and the child always suffers as a result. If the birth control works sex is viewed with less reverence and less intimacy is involved. I believe that people who engage in premarital sex are more likely to have affairs after marriage -- and less likely to stay married.

3. [b]Divorce is very destructive[/b]. We need to be careful about who we marry. The kids pay the highest price. A marriage is important because it provides security for the kids. This is what is unique about a heterosexual union -- kids result, and families are formed. When you divorce you put your kids in the same position as if you'd never married and separated. Kids are better served by parents who never marry -- and never separate, than parents who marry and divorce.

4. [b]Catholic Annulment is exactly the same as a divorce[/b]. The vows are broken, the parents separate, and the kids are in EXACTLY the same position as any kids whose parents have divorced. The man and woman are NOT the same as people who've never married. They are not virgins, they have slept and lived together as husband and wife, they have had kids, and they have broken the marriage vows and commitment to one another -- that they took at the Catholic marriage. Anybody who thinks that an annulment is EXACTLY the same as never being married is an idiot. It's only the same from the perspective of the Catholic church, and in terms of being able to marry within the Catholic church. The divorcee's who got an annulment are much more likely to get divorced when the marry for the second, third, fourth, fifth.. time.

5. [b]Affairs are obviously very wrong[/b]. Affairs can result in divorce -- which can hurt the kids, the husband, the wife. It's the sort of thing that jeopardizes the marriage. If there is a problem with intimacy, or attention, a husband and a wife should be able to discuss the problem. Hey if you can't be open with your husband or wife than who can you be open with??

6. [b]Married people should view themselves a "WE" rather than "ME"[/b]. I know I've never been married, but I've had friends who complained to me about how they did so much in the marriage -- or at home and how their wife/husband did so little. They were totally thinking in self-centered selfish terms. My friends in good marriages never even seemed to think about themselves as "ME" or "I". Doesn't the bible say that in a marriage the two people cleave and become one?

Anyway that's about it for me. I couldn't care less if somebody goes to Mass, Confession, or views the Host literally as the body of Christ. Those aren't even moral issues to me. I couldn't care less about a persons declaration of faith -- like you see among the Protestants. I think that you can easily see what a person believes by how they live. And I'm not afraid to "judge" -- form an opinion -- based upon what I see (That's not the same as damning someone to hell).

Heck I have never even been confirmed, and I miss Mass all the time, and I can't remember the last time I went to confession. Yeah, I'll probably go to Mass tomorrow, but I like the Catholic church here in Escondido. Or I might try a service at a Protestant church -- like the Nazarene (My little sister is a Nazarene).

Anyway that's morality according to me (Richard). What do you guys hold as important? What are the important moral beliefs that define you?

[dairygirl4u2c]

why arent you a 'don't rep the church'? just curious.
i otherwise like, some, of the things you say.

i wonder if the things you are listing is just some 'very important issues' that you are currently working with. not that they are the most important issues facing our times. but not that you are claiming they are the most important issues facing our time.
the greatest issues we have, concern spiritual warfare. the sexual things you are describing, affects most people, unfortunatley, and so they need rules etc. and with rules, comes overly strict overbroad rules etc. as things like 'laws' normally do.
but once people get past all that base stuff, the realm of spiritual advancement is where the battle should truly lie. following jesus' commands to love your neighbor, for example, is simple, yet something one can only learn over time. and there's a whole host of virtures and vices that must be worked on, think of all the cardinal vices and virtues as taught by the catholic church. that's where our battle should truly lie. getting our base nature under control is only the beginning.

Edited October 24, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

Identifying oneself as Catholic yet rejecting that the Church is infallible in teaching on faith and morals is stupid.

[CatherineM]

I agree with the "married people are we" thing. When I hurt, I can see it hurt him too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

by far, for most people, identifying as catholic and not actually following its rules, doesn't make any sense.
i might make a small exception for some traditionalists,and other catholics, who state that they have issues with infallibility, and hten go on to academnically or thereabouts show why. by far, for most people, they dont do that, when claiming to be catholic and not followin the rules. and so yes, it usually doesn't make any sense.

Edited October 24, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[southern california guy]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1287882189' post='2181939']
why are you a 'don't rep the church'? just curious.
i otherwise like, some, of the things you say.
[/quote]

I suppose I represent the Catholic church to the extent that you may see me at Mass. And I was raised Catholic. So I am a product of Catholic parents -- who totally disagreed with the Washington State Catholic church when it came to their position on homosexuals. The Washington State Catholic church had -- and may still have -- many homosexual priests. They started holding special "Dignity" Masses for the homosexuals. And I heard a priest say that "..homosexuals are just another type of 'family'." First my parents started going to another Catholic church, and then we stopped going to Mass altogether. My parents taught me principles rather than loyalty.

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1287882189' post='2181939']
i wonder if the things you are listing is just some 'very important issues' that you are currently working with. not that they are the most important issues facing our times. but not that you are claiming they are the most important issues facing our time. ''
[/quote]

I'm single so these issues are the important issues for me (And probably will be after I get married). These are moral beliefs that are important to me. However I think that divorce and broken families are important issues that are shaping the world. The American Catholic church has a congregation of people who are either divorced -- or children of divorcees. It is shaping the American Catholic church. The Catholic church sort of put its stamp of approval on divorce when it started granting more annulments. In effect the Catholic church is supporting divorce and broken families when they reassure the couple that they were never really married -- and are free to marry again!! Screw the kids.. Why waste your time trying to save the marriage -- when a marriage never really existed! So the Catholic church emphasizes pre-marital counseling but remains silent on the subject of counseling when a marriage is in trouble.

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1287882189' post='2181939']
the greatest issues we have, concern spiritual warfare. the sexual things you are describing, affects most people, unfortunatley, and so they need rules etc. and with rules, comes overly strict overbroad rules etc. as things like 'laws' normally do.
but once people get past all that base stuff, the realm of spiritual advancement is where the battle should truly lie. following jesus' commands to love your neighbor, for example, is simple, yet something one can only learn over time. and there's a whole host of virtures and vices that must be worked on, think of all the cardinal vices and virtues as taught by the catholic church. that's where our battle should truly lie. getting our base nature under control is only the beginning.
[/quote]

To be honest "spiritual warfare" doesn't mean much to me. I'd be hard pressed to define it clearly. I think that societies that have good strong family structure have fewer social problems (People not showing respect for others, or keeping the other virtues).

I don't understand how teaching the morality -- I listed above -- would lead to overboard rules. Acceptance of something destructive -- like homosexuality -- by the Catholic church is not a loving position. It's a cowardly one. It avoids attacks by people who would be most likely to wage attacks (The homosexuals are more likely to go to war over criticism). It's like giving in to a little kid who loudly throws a fit when his parents try to get him to eat dinner. To quiet him down you dump his dinner in the trash and feed him ice cream instead. I am not arguing for laws that would punish those who don't follow them. I'm not even getting into the issue of damnation. For all I know when you die you just die.. And there is no afterlife. If that were the case the moral philosophy I'm arguing for would still apply. I think that certain ways of living are better, and others are worse. If you care about somebody you want them to live in the best manner -- to live the best life that they can. Making it a law would miss the point.

Good moral values are consistent with loving your neighbor. I don't disagree with Jesus's commandment that we love our neighbor as ourselves, but I think that when you don't teach the morals that I list that people don't really know what it means to love their neighbor. Is it okay if I sleep with the girl down the street if I show her love? What if I'm loving to all of the women I sleep with? It seems to me that while religion that emphasizes love and compassion isn't really wrong it lacks the sort of direction needed to really love one another.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1287883612' post='2181941']
Identifying oneself as Catholic yet rejecting that the Church is infallible in teaching on faith and morals is stupid.
[/quote]

I can rationalize that I'm an "old-fashioned" Catholic as opposed to a "modern" Catholic. But the Catholic church[b] IS[/b] the modern Catholic church so my rationalization is a little stupid...

Edited October 24, 2010 by southern california guy

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287880900' post='2181934']
I don't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches. I doubt few Catholics do.
[/quote]

I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by "Catholic." I think of a Catholic as a validly-baptized person who believes and holds as true all the teachings of the Catholic Church. and strives to live according to those teachings.

I once heard a priest talking about a poll that said, "X percent of American Catholics believe . . .. " The priest went on to say, "It's a good thing that I'm a Roman Catholic, and not an American Catholic, because I believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches." That works for "Modern Catholics" too.

~Sternhauser

Edited October 24, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Lilllabettt]

"Morality - According to Me"

Your thread title kinda says it all, huh?

I'd rather stick to "Morality - According to the one true God"

(i.e., not the god I make out of myself)

[Era Might]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287880900' post='2181934']I doubt few people would be offended by the commandment "Thou shall not kill" -- because none of us will ever do that. The sorts of things that we might do are: Have sex out of marriage, get a girl pregnant outside of marriage, break our marriage vows -- after having kids, and cheat on our wives. As I see it the real problem is how these sins affect the kids who are created by them.[/quote]
People kill other people all the time. In fact, St. John says that "anyone who hates his brother is a murderer" (1John 3:15). How often is the word "hate" thrown about by people who've never physically killed anyone? You hear it all the time. "Oh, I hate so-and-so."

I know someone who lives in Latin America who has a large family. He has his wife (whom he's been with for decades), but he has children from other woman. He's a really "good" person in a worldly sense. He takes care of all his kids, he takes care of his wife, he's generous with everybody. His adulteries are sort of looked at as a part of the cultural masculinity there. I don't imagine that his wife "likes" his adulteries, but she doesn't leave him. As I said, he's a very "good" man in a worldly sense. Nobody would say anything bad about him. But what will Christ say when he dies?

I read an interesting suggestion before that the greatest "scandal" in Christianity is Christ's commandment to forgive your enemies. That REALLY "offends" people. I don't think people are as offended by the "family morality" that you are referring to. They expect that kind of morality to be preached, even if they don't live by it. What they are offended by is the higher Way that Christ revealed. They are offended by the idea that hatred is murder. They are offended by the idea that simply lusting after a woman is adultery. And they are supremely offended by the idea that we must forgive our enemies.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Era Might

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1287922980' post='2182024']
"Morality - According to Me"

Your thread title kinda says it all, huh?

I'd rather stick to "Morality - According to the one true God"

(i.e., not the god I make out of myself)
[/quote]

But what is "Morality -- According to the one true God"? What do you believe?

Don't Catholic annulments go against the teachings of Christ? The Pope has said that "..too many annulments are being granted", which clearly means that annulments that should not be granted are being granted. Not everything done in by the Catholic church is correct.

Do you support "Dignity" Masses for homosexuals? Gay and Lesbian support groups in the Catholic church? If the Pope were to support them would you then support them?

I'd rather stick to morality according to the bible -- as I interpret it.

In college my Protestant friends liked to argue that when you became a Christian the Holy Spirit came into you, and you began to live a "Spirit led" life. They were critical of people -- like the Catholics -- who tried to live by their "own power". They would even argue that a Christian who cheated on his wife and had affairs was being tested by the Spirit. I didn't find that logical so I didn't agree. I definitely believe in living by your own power and if a religion is teaching something that seems to go against what is taught in the Bible -- than you are probably right and they're wrong.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287931989' post='2182032']
But what is "Morality -- According to the one true God"? What do you believe?

Don't Catholic annulments go against the teachings of Christ? The Pope has said that "..too many annulments are being granted", which clearly means that annulments that should not be granted are being granted. Not everything done in by the Catholic church is correct.[/quote]

First, you said that an annullment is the same thing as a divorce. This is not the case. Second, you say that the Pope said "Too many annulments are being granted," which you think supports your idea that an annulment is the same as a divorce. This is not the case. Lastly, you say that "not everything done by the Catholic Church is correct." If you mean "not everything done by Church officials is correct," this statement is correct. If, on the other hand, you mean "The Church, as the universal infallible institution of Christ, is doing wrong," then you are incorrect.

[quote]Do you support "Dignity" Masses for homosexuals? Gay and Lesbian support groups in the Catholic church? If the Pope were to support them would you then support them?[/quote]
No, no, and no. Nor does the Church. All those things are scandals, topped by the scandal that they are not vociferously and efficaciously dealt with by the local Ordinary.

[quote]I'd rather stick to morality according to the bible -- as I interpret it.[/quote]

You are speaking of the Bible assembled in its current form as we know it, by the Church, in her first four centuries? How can you know that the Church didn't mess that up?

And as you interpret it? You don't think the Church is infallible, but apparently, even if you don't think you're infallible yourself, you're at least better at interpreting Scripture than the Church and her 2000 year history?

You will not have much success doing it "your way." It would be better if you listened to "sound doctrine," as St. Paul sai[font="Arial"]d. "For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and will turn away indeed their hearing from the truth, but will be turned to fables." [/font]

[quote]In college my Protestant friends liked to argue that when you became a Christian the Holy Spirit came into you, and you began to live a "Spirit led" life. They were critical of people -- like the Catholics -- who tried to live by their "own power". They would even argue that a Christian who cheated on his wife and had affairs was being tested by the Spirit. I didn't find that logical so I didn't agree. I definitely believe in living by your own power and if a religion is teaching something that seems to go against what is taught in the Bible -- than you are probably right and they're wrong.
[/quote]

The Bible says you are not to live by your own power, but by the power of Christ and according to "sound doctrine" taught by the Church.

What doctrine(s), in your opinion, is the Church as an institution teaching, that you consider contrary to the Bible?

~Sternhauser

Edited October 24, 2010 by Sternhauser

[MissScripture]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287880900' post='2181934']
I don't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches. I doubt few Catholics do. The way I look at it morality has more to do with marriage kids and families than almost anything else. I doubt few people would be offended by the commandment "Thou shall not kill" -- because none of us will ever do that. The sorts of things that we might do are: Have sex out of marriage, get a girl pregnant outside of marriage, break our marriage vows -- after having kids, and cheat on our wives. As I see it the real problem is how these sins affect the kids who are created by them.

So here is my version of morality (You'll never hear this in church -- ever.) Preachy but direct -- and this is a religious forum right?

1. [b] Homosexuality is a potentially destructive perversion[/b]. And it is condemned in the bible by the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. We must never condone it in any fashion. The Catholic church has a huge problem with homosexuality. The Vatican needs to take a stand against homosexuality -- absolutely no homosexual priests, and absolutely no "Dignity" Masses.

2. [b]Premarital sex is wrong[/b]. Birth control isn't perfect and getting pregnant outside of a secure marriage is a BIG DEAL. It's a HUGE extra responsibility for the woman and the child always suffers as a result. If the birth control works sex is viewed with less reverence and less intimacy is involved. I believe that people who engage in premarital sex are more likely to have affairs after marriage -- and less likely to stay married.

3. [b]Divorce is very destructive[/b]. We need to be careful about who we marry. The kids pay the highest price. A marriage is important because it provides security for the kids. This is what is unique about a heterosexual union -- kids result, and families are formed. When you divorce you put your kids in the same position as if you'd never married and separated. Kids are better served by parents who never marry -- and never separate, than parents who marry and divorce.

4. [b]Catholic Annulment is exactly the same as a divorce[/b]. The vows are broken, the parents separate, and the kids are in EXACTLY the same position as any kids whose parents have divorced. The man and woman are NOT the same as people who've never married. They are not virgins, they have slept and lived together as husband and wife, they have had kids, and they have broken the marriage vows and commitment to one another -- that they took at the Catholic marriage. Anybody who thinks that an annulment is EXACTLY the same as never being married is an idiot. It's only the same from the perspective of the Catholic church, and in terms of being able to marry within the Catholic church. The divorcee's who got an annulment are much more likely to get divorced when the marry for the second, third, fourth, fifth.. time.

5. [b]Affairs are obviously very wrong[/b]. Affairs can result in divorce -- which can hurt the kids, the husband, the wife. It's the sort of thing that jeopardizes the marriage. If there is a problem with intimacy, or attention, a husband and a wife should be able to discuss the problem. Hey if you can't be open with your husband or wife than who can you be open with??

6. [b]Married people should view themselves a "WE" rather than "ME"[/b]. I know I've never been married, but I've had friends who complained to me about how they did so much in the marriage -- or at home and how their wife/husband did so little. They were totally thinking in self-centered selfish terms. My friends in good marriages never even seemed to think about themselves as "ME" or "I". Doesn't the bible say that in a marriage the two people cleave and become one?

Anyway that's about it for me. I couldn't care less if somebody goes to Mass, Confession, or views the Host literally as the body of Christ. Those aren't even moral issues to me. I couldn't care less about a persons declaration of faith -- like you see among the Protestants. I think that you can easily see what a person believes by how they live. And I'm not afraid to "judge" -- form an opinion -- based upon what I see (That's not the same as damning someone to hell).

Heck I have never even been confirmed, and I miss Mass all the time, and I can't remember the last time I went to confession. Yeah, I'll probably go to Mass tomorrow, but I like the Catholic church here in Escondido. Or I might try a service at a Protestant church -- like the Nazarene (My little sister is a Nazarene).

Anyway that's morality according to me (Richard). What do you guys hold as important? What are the important moral beliefs that define you?
[/quote]
I sincerely don't mean this as any sort of attack, but just as a sincere question:

You have commented in the past that you've looked into other denominations/religions (various forms of protestants, mormons, etc), but how much time have you spent learning what the Church TRULY teaches and not just what some priests did that you didn't like (like Dignity Masses)? I mean, some of this stuff, after you say you'll never hear this in a Church, are things that I HAVE heard in Church, and some of it seems like a misunderstanding of what the Church ACTUALLY teaches that you're against, not the actual Church teaching.

Like I said, I'm not trying to attack you, but I think it may do you well to look further into what the Church teaches instead of rejecting some things out of hand.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1287883612' post='2181941']
Identifying oneself as Catholic yet rejecting that the Church is infallible in teaching on faith and morals is stupid.
[/quote]
this.

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1287921717' post='2182020']
I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by "Catholic." I think of a Catholic as a validly-baptized person who believes and holds as true all the teachings of the Catholic Church. and strives to live according to those teachings.

I once heard a priest talking about a poll that said, "X percent of American Catholics believe . . .. " The priest went on to say, "It's a good thing that I'm a Roman Catholic, and not an American Catholic, because I believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches." That works for "Modern Catholics" too.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
nice.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287931989' post='2182032']
I'd rather stick to morality according to the bible -- as I interpret it.
[/quote]
and thus we have Protestantism.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1287931989' post='2182032']
like the Catholics -- who tried to live by their "own power".
[/quote]
Catholics do not live 'by their own power'.