Preemptive Attack Personal

[Semper Catholic]

I wanna know what you did to piss of an entire army of people lol

[WarriorForJesus]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1288351503' post='2183418']
I shall add that the decision to not fight unjust aggressors, while it can be admirable, leaves unjust aggressors to attack other innocents. Killing evil men can be a good work.
[/quote]


[color="#800080"]Are you saying that St. Stephen did not do enough to stop those who were persecuting, and killing, the first Christians?

Are you saying that all Catholics, in fact all Christians, should kill abortion doctors as they are killing the most innocent of us.

Janice[/color]

[Tally Marx]

The question is, do we have the strength to be martyrs, to die the way Jesus did-- as a lamb to the slaughter, making not a sound?
....I'd like to think I could. But I've never been in that position, so I cannot say what I would do.
Though, I'd probably pray for grace.

[Winchester]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288393425' post='2183533']
[color="#800080"]Are you saying that St. Stephen did not do enough to stop those who were persecuting, and killing, the first Christians?

Are you saying that all Catholics, in fact all Christians, should kill abortion doctors as they are killing the most innocent of us.

Janice[/color]
[/quote]
Are you saying Moses and the Israelites were wrong?

You made an absolute statement. I showed that your abolutism was wrong. I didn't denounce martyrdom, I simply denounced the idea that killing cannot be in service of God.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Winchester

[WarriorForJesus]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1288402783' post='2183564']
Are you saying Moses and the Israelites were wrong?

You made an absolute statement. I showed that your abolutism was wrong. I didn't denounce martyrdom, I simply denounced the idea that killing cannot be in service of God.
[/quote]


[color="#800080"]Jesus gave us different directives, commands, than God the Father gave to the Israelites. If God came to me and told me to kill the people who were wanting to kill me and my family, I would do as God asks. But as it is, Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. I will follow Jesus' teachings short of God actually speaking to me.

janice[/color]

[Winchester]

[quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1288407263' post='2183580']
[color="#800080"]Jesus gave us different directives, commands, than God the Father gave to the Israelites. If God came to me and told me to kill the people who were wanting to kill me and my family, I would do as God asks. But as it is, Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. I will follow Jesus' teachings short of God actually speaking to me.

janice[/color]
[/quote]
So you take the position that the Church is wrong. I understand.

[WarriorForJesus]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1288431592' post='2183607']
So you take the position that the Church is wrong. I understand.
[/quote]


[color="#800080"]Apparently you do not understand. Where did I state, or imply, or infer, that the Church is wrong. i'm a Catholic through and through. What gives?

Janice[/color]

[dairygirl4u2c]

'turn the other cheek' is a rule of thumb to me.
-one could take the full approach and not self defend, but even the CC teaches that one may. so we know the rule isn't absolute there. and with just war, it's not. Jesus simply chose not to do what i believe he was entitled to. he did it out of love and 'just letting it slide', but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be justified and 'entitled' to fight back. there is much to ponder there, for sure, about when we may do somehting we're entitled to, or choose to act out of love instead, let it slide. even to our death?
-turn the other cheek could also be more about not returning revenge for revenge. an eye for an eye type stuff. you take out someone's eye cause they took out yours? what purpose does that serve? it's about revenge, only. you can't even try to rationalize good motives from it, it's just revenge. eg, you could rationalize forcing someone to pay for soemthing they broke, or something acutally constructive. taking an eye out, etc, does not.
-some say 'turn the other cheek' was more about a social thing. as implied with turn the cheek, you turn the cheek so they could slap the other side too. how people in those times slapped with the back hand. and if you turned your cheek, they'd have to slap with the front of the hand, which would be offensive for the person slapping to do
-obviously we're not to be super literal with it, cause then we'd be expected to let them beat us to a pulp. can we even run away? not if we're to stand there and turn the cheek. even jesus ran away usually when they tried to kill him. my guess is his last days on earth were simply due to htem coming as a mob, and him being at his last rope.
--whenever the issue of sacrifices came up, the god and jesus always said that they weren't interested in it much, but focused on mercy type stuff. 'what does God require of you except to love justice and mercy and to walk humbly with you God?' the humbly part, should be the for so many reasons. but one primary point being we can't draw that mercy justice distinction very well outself. so, these sorts of debates occur.

just some thoughts.

Edited October 30, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[WarriorForJesus]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1288448602' post='2183622']
'turn the other cheek' is a rule of thumb to me.
-one could take the full approach and not self defend, but even the CC teaches that one may. so we know the rule isn't absolute there. and with just war, it's not. Jesus simply chose not to do what i believe he was entitled to. he did it out of love, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be justified and 'entitled' to fight back. [/quote]

[color="#800080"]Entitled to fight back? This implies that one knows everything about why one is being attacked. Yes, we have free will and are "entitled" to use is freely. However, that does not mean that we need to fight back against everyone who attacks us. Jesus no only told us to "turn the other cheek", but He also told us to bless those who persecute us, to love those who hate us. How can I love someone who is hating me enough to kill me and my family if I kill them? I can love them by praying for their soul, but I can not love them if I free their soul from their bodies when I kill them, can I? If they are not repentent, surely they are on their way to hell, and how is that a loving thing to do to them?
[/color]
[quote]-turn the other cheek could also be more about not returning revenge for revenge. an eye for an eye type stuff. you take out someone's eye cause they took out yours? what purpose does that serve? it's about revenge, only. you can't even try to rationalize good motives from it, it's just revenge. eg, you could rationalize forcing someone to pay for soemthing they broke, or something acutally constructive. taking an eye out, etc, does not.[/quote]

[color="#800080"]Revenge is best left for the Lord.[/color]


[quote]-some say 'turn the other cheek' was more about a social thing. as implied with turn the cheek, you turn the cheek so they could slap the other side too. how people in those times slapped with the back hand. and if you turned your cheek, they'd have to slap with the front of the hand, which would be offensive for the person slapping to do
[/quote]
[color="#800080"]Who are these "some" that say this? How do I know they are correct? What if someone were ambidextrous? Surely they could slap with the back of their hand no matter which cheek was being turned to them. No matter though, perhaps "turning the other cheek" was supposed to cause the person doing the slapping to pause in their attack and by pausing, causing him to reconsider why he is slapping someone in the first place. [/color]

[quote]-obviously we're not to be super literal with it, cause then we'd be expected to let them beat us to a pulp. can we even run away? not if we're to stand there and turn the cheek. even jesus ran away usually when they tried to kill him. my guess is his last days on earth were simply due to htem coming as a mob, and him being at his last rope. [/quote]

[color="#800080"]Jesus ran away? I know He disappeared into a crowd at least once, but was it an act of cowardice on Jesus' part, which seems to be what you are saying? Jesus' time had not come. He had not done all He was given to do. I sincerely hope your "guess" is wrong and that Jesus was not "at his last rope". For if that were the case, Jesus had no faith. If Jesus can "run away" from a few, surely He could "run away" from a mob.[/color]

[quote]--whenever the issue of sacrifices came up, the god and jesus always said that they weren't interested in it much, but focused on mercy type stuff. 'what does God require of you except to love justice and mercy and to walk humbly with you God?' the humbly part, should be the for so many reasons. but one primary point being we can't draw that mercy justice distinction very well outself. so, these sorts of debates occur. [/quote]

[color="#800080"]You used the phrase, "the god and jesus", are you saying that Jesus isn't God? That would have to be handled in a new thread, I would think. But what makes you think that God the Father, who instructed the Israelites to make sacrifices for their sins, would not be interested in sacrifices? Also, what do you think the action of Jesus in the Cross was, if not a sacrifice? The Trinity takes sacrifices very seriously, thank you.

You are correct though in that Mercy is important to God. For He has mercy on those He chooses. We do not dictate who He must choose.

God's justice and mercy may look very different, indeed, from the mercy and justice that humans comprehend.
[/color]
[color="#800080"]Janice[/color]