Sternhauser Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) A guard dog certainly is put down if it bites someone who isn't actually breaking into a house or attacking anyone. The one in the video could have used some better socialization as a puppy. ~Sternhauser Edited October 20, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287523170' post='2180787'] Blanket statements about anarchists are not real rebuttals to what you saw. Oddly enough, in a free state people may protest. We don't live in a police state? What about the Patriot Act, red light cameras, the IRS, the latest sale of X-ray vans to police departments (yes, vans that can see through buildings.) What do you make of the president now having the power to order the assassination of American citizens ? ([url="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/middleeast/07yemen.html"]http://www.nytimes.c...st/07yemen.html[/url] ) What do you make of the US when we put Japanese in internment camps? The US has steadily grown into a modern day police State. They happen gradually. Hitler didn't come in a vacuum, he had foundations in the previous governments own police force. The USSR didn't just spring up a police force over night, the tsars had one too. It happens gradually. It is no defense to say some other police states are worse. A true Constitutional republic would have severe limitations on police, not severe limitations on people in relation to police. [/quote] No we don't live in an actual police state. People like you are free to whine and complain all the time and many in government support you. Many Courts and many lawmakers. Is America perfect? No, never has been, the the interment of the Japanese is seen my Americans both citizens and in government as a shameful dark time for America. I think it foolish of you and insulting of you to sit in the freedom and comfort of your home and compare the United States to a police state. If the Patriot Act was all the crazies claim it is you would have been dragged away in the dead of night and shot. That's what would happen in an actual police state. You insult those who live and die in a real police state by comparing the two. Enjoy your freedom to live outside reality you wouldn't last one second in a real police-state. Edited October 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) Lets talk about police states. I grew up in one, namely Baghdad, Iraq. Now, one would argue with wiretaps being the norm I would know about police states. It didn't take much for you to go awry there, all it took was an airy word heard by some undercover police man. You'd be gone to meet Saddam yourself. Now, let us move here, to the US, bastion of freedom. We can discuss the Patriot Act, my father can tell you about it. He went and translated for the USMC for 3 years in Iraq and became great friends with the general. His mother sold her house and wanted him to bring back his portion and his brother and sister's portion. Now, under the fear mongering attitudes and new forms my dad was detained for the high crime of bringing money in from Iraq and being Iraqi. He was flying in from his service and he was detained. He was sent to prison in Virginia and was held there for 5 days for what? The high crime of bringing a large sum of money from Iraq in cash. It was repaid to him in some fraction eventually. Now why would a man who was just returning from his service in Iraq be detained like that? What would be the grounds? You see, ultimately, we have the platform for a police state, now we just need the police. Waco showed us what they could do. The IRS is doubling it's size, and the powers the IRS have are disgustingly contradictory to the framer's intentions. So, you can say I am being absurd, unfair to those who have lived in a police state but I ask that you understand that today America is faced with the greatest intrusions of it's liberties and the police structure is restructuring and redoubling. Why is it ok for the President to be able to command people to kill American citizens without trial? Why is it ok for domestic police depts. to have vans that can see through walls? Why is it okay? Why do we have the right to wage war against non-aggressive nations. Where does Guantanamo Bay fit into the American ideals? You see, the reality is that I'm not some police hating individual, I am just a realist. And I don't base it on some delusion, but rather on the very works our founders read and wrote. The Federalist Papers are a good start about the intrusions of government. When you realize police men are merely agents of the State, and the govt has twice upheld they are not meant to either serve or protect the citizenry, at least they have no obligation, then you begin to realize what is forming around you. Will all of them obey the govt when it asks them to do radical things? I don't know, but Waco happened. Will they all use force against enemies of the state? I don't know, but not too long ago I was on the list for being pro-life and advocating freedom. Edited October 20, 2010 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) . Edited October 20, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semper Catholic Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Actually I doubt a pit would do anything to you, even if you were being a twerp and poking it. Great dogs. Even so, I would hope that a grown man, and a Cop would have a little more restraint then a domesticated animal. Not to mention a soap bubble and a stick aren't exactly even in terms of threatening "weapons" Honestly if an 18-19 year old National Guardsmen can handle a flower-child coming up and putting a daisy in his rifle at the height of Vietnam, I think Officer Bubbles should be able to handle himself more professionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287534493' post='2180840'] Lets talk about police states. I grew up in one, namely Baghdad, Iraq. Now, one would argue with wiretaps being the norm I would know about police states. It didn't take much for you to go awry there, all it took was an airy word heard by some undercover police man. You'd be gone to meet Saddam yourself.[/quote] That does not happened here, and that is my point. You have been free as well as many others to rail against the state, openly, something that would have never happened in Saddam's Iraq. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287534493' post='2180840']Now, let us move here, to the US, bastion of freedom. We can discuss the Patriot Act, my father can tell you about it. He went and translated for the USMC for 3 years in Iraq and became great friends with the general. His mother sold her house and wanted him to bring back his portion and his brother and sister's portion. Now, under the fear mongering attitudes and new forms my dad was detained for the high crime of bringing money in from Iraq and being Iraqi. He was flying in from his service and he was detained. He was sent to prison in Virginia and was held there for 5 days for what? The high crime of bringing a large sum of money from Iraq in cash. It was repaid to him in some fraction eventually. Now why would a man who was just returning from his service in Iraq be detained like that? What would be the grounds?[/quote] Ok that is a sad story, but surely you must realize that moving large sums of money from Iraq of all places is going to be a red flag. As such actions could and are often linked to Terrorists or Organized Crime. That would be the grounds for such an action, moving large sums of money out of a terrorist prone state is highly suspect. Did he talk with his friends about in the USMC or go to the US Emissary before just hoping on the plane? Had he done so and went threw the proper channels he may have avoid the trouble.I doubt it was an actual prison, as one must be put on trial and sent to one. It was likely a jail or holding cell. Which is a large difference than a prison. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287534493' post='2180840']You see, ultimately, we have the platform for a police state, now we just need the police. Waco showed us what they could do. The IRS is doubling it's size, and the powers the IRS have are disgustingly contradictory to the framer's intentions. So, you can say I am being absurd, unfair to those who have lived in a police state but I ask that you understand that today America is faced with the greatest intrusions of it's liberties and the police structure is restructuring and redoubling.[/quote] In other words you fear that the United States will become a Police-State, but it is not actually a Police-State. The United States is not prefect but you and I still have the right and the means and the ability to change what we do not like about our Government. Yes it is unfair and unjust of you to sit in freedom and act as if that freedom does not exist. You are not in Saddam's Iraq anymore, had you been and said what you have said against the US against Him you would be dead or worse. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287534493' post='2180840']Why is it ok for the President to be able to command people to kill American citizens without trial? Why is it ok for domestic police depts. to have vans that can see through walls? Why is it okay? Why do we have the right to wage war against non-aggressive nations. Where does Guantanamo Bay fit into the American ideals? You see, the reality is that I'm not some police hating individual, I am just a realist. And I don't base it on some delusion, but rather on the very works our founders read and wrote. The Federalist Papers are a good start about the intrusions of government. [/quote] Because of the important part of that order you're leaving out. America is at war with terrorism, and if Americans are working with Terrorists at war with the US they make themselves enemies of the United States. Treason is a high crime. Collaborating with the enemy makes that American the enemy. Edited October 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzGqi1dWqww[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKgFsqry6LQ[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287538045' post='2180867'] That does not happened here, and that is my point. You have been free as well as many others to rail against the state, openly, something that would have never happened in Saddam's Iraq. [/quote] Degrees of police state don't justify having one. Having police limited by strict constitutional rules is superior to a lesser police state. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287538045' post='2180867'] Ok that is a sad story, but surely you must realize that moving large sums of money from Iraq of all places is going to be a red flag. As such actions could and are often linked to Terrorists or Organized Crime. That would be the grounds for such an action, moving large sums of money out of a terrorist prone state is highly suspect. I'd talk with his friends about in the USMC or go to the US Emissary before just hoping on the plane? Had he done so and went threw the proper channels he may have avoid the trouble.I doubt it was an actual prison, as one must be put on trial and sent to one. It was likely a jail or holding cell. Which is a large difference than a prison. [/quote] No, you are right, I misspoke. It was a holding cell until his trial where he plea bargained. Tell me, what is objectively immoral about bringing in money of your own? How hard would it be for them to see that my father is not a Muslim? You are saying people ought to give up liberties for the sake of security? What about reason? If we are fighting a war against muslim terrorists wouldn't some reason step in here? [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287538045' post='2180867'] In other words you fear that the United States will become a Police-State, but it is not actually a Police-State. The United States is not prefect but you and I still have the right and the means and the ability to change what we do not like about our Government. Yes it is unfair and unjust of you to sit in freedom and act as if that freedom does not exist. You are not in Saddam's Iraq anymore, had you been and said what you have said against the US against Him you would be dead or worse.[/quote] Like I said, a lesser degree of police state is no reason not to call it one. They come in degrees, it's not a binary yes police state or no police state. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287538045' post='2180867'] Because of the important part of that order you're leaving out. America is at war with terrorism, and if Americans are working with Terrorists at war with the US they make themselves enemies of the United States. Treason is a high crime. Collaborating with the enemy makes that American the enemy. [/quote] We still believe every American has a right to trial before his peers. Unfortunately, we don't have a dictator for a president who can act as judge and jury and also put out the hit order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287538690' post='2180873'] Degrees of police state don't justify having one. Having police limited by strict constitutional rules is superior to a lesser police state. [/quote] This is not a police-state. But thanks for playing the game. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287538690' post='2180873']No, you are right, I misspoke. It was a holding cell until his trial where he plea bargained. Tell me, what is objectively immoral about bringing in money of your own? How hard would it be for them to see that my father is not a Muslim? You are saying people ought to give up liberties for the sake of security? What about reason? If we are fighting a war against muslim terrorists wouldn't some reason step in here? [/quote] You don't get it. You can't move large sum of money from a Terrorist prone State without it raising red flag, and that's A GOOD THING. Had he gone threw the proper channels he wouldn't have been hassled. I guess he did not, that was his error. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287538690' post='2180873']Like I said, a lesser degree of police state is no reason not to call it one. They come in degrees, it's not a binary yes police state or no police state.[/quote] This is not an actual police state. If it were you'd be silenced. But you're still protesting. And you have the right. Which is defend by the Courts all the time. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287538690' post='2180873']We still believe every American has a right to trial before his peers. Unfortunately, we don't have a dictator for a president who can act as judge and jury and also put out the hit order. [/quote] What? Edited October 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287538488' post='2180872'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKgFsqry6LQ[/media] [/quote] Wow so peaceful, I can't think of any reason why the Police would be on edge about G-20 protesters. NO REASON AT ALL, DOWN WITH THE PO PO! Edited October 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) If we do not live in a police state, what do you consider Waco? What do you consider the IRS, or the FBI's powers? I didn't know my father was unaware of the proper channels. I suppose you do? Just because I am not beat up for what I say now, evidently as evidenced by the G-20 summit, there sure are places. The president has no right to assassinate any US citizen without a fair trial. This is the constitution. He is not a dictator, he is a president. Edited October 20, 2010 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1287532578' post='2180823'] Wow. ~Sternhauser [/quote] wow? [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1287533000' post='2180827'] A guard dog certainly is put down if it bites someone who isn't actually breaking into a house or attacking anyone. The one in the video could have used some better socialization as a puppy. ~Sternhauser [/quote] true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1287538488' post='2180872'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKgFsqry6LQ[/media] [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-e6oS8lGMo[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287539664' post='2180879'] If we do not live in a police state, what do you consider Waco? What do you consider the IRS, or the FBI's powers? [/quote] An imperfect Republic. But not an actual police state. Things we can change, we still have large sums of liberty here. And you are using that liberty now. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287539664' post='2180879']I didn't know my father was unaware of the proper channels. I suppose you do? [/quote] I am sorry but reason should tell anyone these days you cannot move large sums of money from a Terrorist prone state and think you'll just pass through customs with flying colours. Asking the US Embassy would have been the place to start. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287539664' post='2180879']Just because I am not beat up for what I say now, evidently as evidenced by the G-20 summit, there sure are places.[/quote] Because the G-20 protesters are just peaceful flower children who dont dare set police cars on fire on anything violent like that. Please accuse me while I call BS. They cause riots they get in the face of the police and by all means appear to want to be arrested. [quote name='MichaelFilo' timestamp='1287539664' post='2180879']The president has no right to assassinate any US citizen without a fair trial. This is the constitution. He is not a dictator, he is a president. [/quote] Your last statement was unclear, this one is clearer. The US armed forces have been putting down traitors for sometime. If you join the enemy in war, you will be treated as one. Edited October 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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