Must We Not Criticize/compare Catholicism With Other Religions?

[southern california guy]

I've tried a number of different "Christian" religions and I'm surprised by how much they differ from Catholicism. They have completely different philosophies about marriage, divorce, and children.

As far as I know there is only ONE "Christian" religion that doesn't believe in a church marriage after a divorce. And that is the Protestant Reformed. The Catholic church used to hold that position. Some people argue that it still does, but in essence a divorce -- as specified by Moses -- was something that was done so that a Jew could remarry (Within the Jewish church). So a Catholic "annulment" is really a Catholic "divorce". But before rushing and joining the Protestant Reformed religion on the basis of this one issue we need to ask "What other sorts of things are taught by the Protestant Reformed church?" If I were to seriously consider that religion I'd want to find a website where people were critical of that religion.

I moved to Utah back in 1995. At that time all I knew about Mormons and Mormonism was that my Mormon friends seemed to be really nice family people. Now at the Catholic church in Logan there was a talk about the differences between Catholicism and Mormonism. A Catholic priest -- who had been raised LDS (Mormon) but converted to Catholicism -- came down from Idaho and gave the talk. Of course the talk was jam crammed with Mormons who interrupted his talk continually and almost totally prevented him from discussing the differences. I would have liked to have heard the talk without the Mormons interfering because there are big differences between Catholic philosophies and Mormon ones. Unfortunately bullying works -- in that case the Mormons were the "bullies" -- and instead of sparking further discussion about differences that Catholic Priest and Sister decided that they shouldn't have a talk like that again. And some of the people in the Newman club who had worked to set it up were basically kicked out of the Newman club. They had "created" a "conflict". Of course the Mormons who interrupted where the only who had behaved inappropriately -- but they had achieved their goal and prevented a discussion of the differences. And that's important in Utah because they want to convert as many people to their religion as possible.

I wonder if the Catholic church isn't almost making a mistake when it strives to be ecumenical.

There are differences between religions. Getting back to marriage, divorce, and philosophies about them -- the Catholics and the Lutherans still have the lowest divorce rate of the religious groups. The Mormons and the Jews are in the middle and the fundamentalist Protestants have the highest divorce rate. In all of the years I attended services at the Mormon church, and the various Protestant ones, I never heard divorce mentioned. I've only heard it mentioned in the Catholic church -- because some people are critical of annulments and you can't remarry in the Catholic church without one.

Marriage vows seem to viewed rather loosely in religions other than the Catholic and Lutheran one. And I'd argue that their philosophy of marriage is different as well. Utah is called the "Married State" by a lot of Mormons. The Mormons push getting married and having kids. And that is one of the reasons that Mormonism appealed to me. It seems like now-a-days the people with the kids -- the big families -- are the Mormons. The Catholics, it seems, are viewed as the ones into homosexuality and chaste orders.

Now I'll admit that I don't really know what the Catholic philosophy is on marriage, but after living in Utah for seven years I got a feel for their perspective. Brigham Young once said "Any man who is single, over the age of 26, is a menace to society." And I was told by Mormon friends that "It's not important who you marry, what is important is what you make of the marriage." And I also heard that when the Missionaries got back from their Missions that they were pressured to get married quickly -- "Just throw the names in a hat and pick one!" So does that culture, that religion, encourage marriage -- for the sake of being "married" -- rather than marrying and making lifetime vows because you're in love with that person and want to spend the rest of your life with them?? I'll admit that I don't know my bible very well, are there teachings in the bible specifically on this topic? What does the Catholic church teach.

It seems that many of the Protestant religions preach a "Personal Relationship" with Jesus Christ. However my experience with those religions has been that they emphasize public displays of their faith "Alter calls" etc. The Catholic church it seems is more "personal" and less about public declarations and displays of faith. The protestants argue that the Catholics aren't "Saved" because they haven't been "Born Again". What are they talking about?

The Protestant services I've attended seemed to me to have more of a social atmosphere than a religious one. And while I strangely found the sermons and talks sort of soothing and comforting I got almost virtually no religious guidance from them. And I can't say that I really did any real praying in those churches either -- but boy did we sing some upbeat Jesus songs! But it disturbed me to find out that a number of nice young couples with the kids weren't married. However there was never anything preached in church that would embarrass them or their kids. There was never anything preached about divorce and remarriage -- even though there are a number of references to it in the New Testament. The pastor never pointed to Sodom and Gomorrah and preached that we shouldn't live in this manner. Instead they focused on how we treated homosexuals and argued that we had to be "accepting" and "supportive" of them. Now I suppose there are some Protestant religions that do speak out against sodomy and sexual deviancy but I don't know which ones they are. Now at least that was one issue the Mormons weren't afraid to speak out on. However why have I heard so little from the Catholic church? At least a Catholic Mass is one place that I can go and pray and reflect -- in a way that I can't in a Protestant or Mormon service. If you've ever wondered what a Mormon service is like, I'd say that it's very "business like". The men wear their best business suits and the women wear formal dresses.

Anyway I'm probably being a bit too preachy but I thought I'd post this and see what you guys thought.

[Gregorius]

Comparing Catholicism with other Religions is not really a bad thing. That being said, as you already pointed out, Catholicism isn't as comparable to other religions as some people hold, which means certain mistakes can be made if you aren't careful.

For example, it would be a mistake to say Catholics support divorce. As we believe that Marriage is a sacrament given freely by the couple to each other, it follows that if the choice was not freely made or if a spouse wasn't really intending to make the vows, then technically the Marriage never happened. One who gets married after an annulment is truly getting married for the first time, despite what everybody or the civil government thought before.

What you highlight is a big problem in the Church today, that is, the increased number of annulments being declared. Sadly, some people don't understand what their marriage is all about or weren't ready to tie the knot when they did, but I have also heard that Church tribunals are declaring marriages null that may or may not have been neccesarily so, out of some false sense of compassion for the people involved. "Catholic Divorce" is what certain people treat annulment as in order to manipulate the Church to meet their own ends, and comes from the easily-breakable contract view of Marriage held by secular society today.

I need to go to Mass now, but I will post more later, assuming somebody more eloquent than I doesn't post first.

[Gregorius]

It seems I wasn't needed at Mass after all. Good news is, I've already been today. The bad news is, they won't have a thurifer.

Technically speaking, Mormonism is not a real denomination of Christanity. Scratch that, Mormanism is not Christian in the real sense. They do not believe in the One and Triune God, and consequently they do not believe Jesus is and always has been inherently true God and true man. They largely use different scripture. And that's to name a few, if others want to elaborate.

The "born-again" thing, if I understand it correctly, is a direct result of the Protestant error of 'sola fide' (that is, faith in Christ is the only thing necessary to attain salvation, where salvation actually requires that the Faith must be acted upon as well, good works, to simplify). Evangelical Protestants hold that if you truly accept the faith of Jesus, then you will receive the Holy Spirit, and you will automatically be marked for God. No matter what you do for the rest of your life, you are marked for God and heaven, and thus the idea of "once saved, always saved" arises. The biblical reference cited is John 3:3. This view does not reconcile with the True nature of sin, but Protestants defend it with Martin Luther's position that a complete transformation of human nature is impossible, that we will always be bags of whatsit (his actual words cannot be repeated in polite company) and that we are simply "clothed with Christ", that is, Christ's sacrifice causes God to overlook our fallen nature.

We as Catholics hold that Salvation is an ongoing process, starting with our baptism, and ending with our death (with purgation of sin and entrance into heaven, God willing and us agreeing). All of us will keep falling into sin over the course of our lives, and God the Father will keep offering us His mercy through the ministry of the Church, especially through Mass and Confession. If we believe and strive to always please God, we will grow in holiness throuhout our lives, but for the most part, that process won't end until after death.

It is this confusion about the nature of salvation plus a general suspision of all things "popish" or "Roman" that certain Protestants claim that we are not saved.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Gregorius' timestamp='1286151208' post='2177703']
The "born-again" thing, if I understand it correctly, is a direct result of the Protestant error of 'sola fide' (that is, faith in Christ is the only thing necessary to attain salvation, where salvation actually requires that the Faith must be acted upon as well, good works, to simplify). Evangelical Protestants hold that if you truly accept the faith of Jesus, then you will receive the Holy Spirit, and you will automatically be marked for God. No matter what you do for the rest of your life, you are marked for God and heaven, and thus the idea of "once saved, always saved" arises. The biblical reference cited is John 3:3. This view does not reconcile with the True nature of sin, but Protestants defend it with Martin Luther's position that a complete transformation of human nature is impossible, that we will always be bags of whatsit (his actual words cannot be repeated in polite company) and that we are simply "clothed with Christ", that is, Christ's sacrifice causes God to overlook our fallen nature.

We as Catholics hold that Salvation is an ongoing process, starting with our baptism, and ending with our death (with purgation of sin and entrance into heaven, God willing and us agreeing). All of us will keep falling into sin over the course of our lives, and God the Father will keep offering us His mercy through the ministry of the Church, especially through Mass and Confession. If we believe and strive to always please God, we will grow in holiness throuhout our lives, but for the most part, that process won't end until after death.

It is this confusion about the nature of salvation plus a general suspision of all things "popish" or "Roman" that certain Protestants claim that we are not saved.
[/quote]

Yeah the Protestants talk about living a "Spirit led" life rather than trying to live by your own power. I've heard Protestants say things like, "He was being tested by the advocate" -- in reference to a "Christian" who was having an affair, or committed some sort of crime. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the "advocate" that they refer to the Holy Ghost, or the Holy Spirit?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1286137365' post='2177658']
As far as I know there is only ONE "Christian" religion that doesn't believe in a church marriage after a divorce. And that is the Protestant Reformed.[/quote]

Can't say I've ever heard this. While marriage was taken very seriously by the Reformed-type churches I've attended, I don't think any of them would refuse marriage to a divorced believer if they felt the couple seeking marriage shared a healthy, holy relationship.

Annulments are easy to dismiss, and I'm sure some legitimate issue can be taken with the ease annulments are granted in many dioceses. On the other hand, they are not always granted. Plus, it's quite possible than many Catholic couples make marriage vows without really knowing what they're getting into, in which case those marriages would rightly be annulled.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1286137365' post='2177658']
I wonder if the Catholic church isn't almost making a mistake when it strives to be ecumenical.[/quote]

No, our mistake was allowing the Church to break apart in the first place. While it doesn't excuse the Protestant Reformers' actions, the hardened hearts of Catholic bishops was clearly a contributing force to the Reformation.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1286137365' post='2177658']
So does that culture, that religion, encourage marriage -- for the sake of being "married" -- rather than marrying and making lifetime vows because you're in love with that person and want to spend the rest of your life with them?? I'll admit that I don't know my bible very well, are there teachings in the bible specifically on this topic? What does the Catholic church teach.[/quote]

What you describe as the Mormon approach to marriage is definitely a little messed up. It's true that marriage is primarily a choice to obey your vows and to love your spouse, but that much pressure can put a couple under duress, and vows without full, free consent are invalid.

Marriage is an awesome gift and sacrament. It should be celebrated and encouraged, especially as the foundation of family and as a vocation oriented toward raising children in the Faith. At the same time, it should be entered into freely, because love can only be offered where there is free will.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1286137365' post='2177658']
The protestants argue that the Catholics aren't "Saved" because they haven't been "Born Again". What are they talking about? [/quote]

Some Protestants argue this -- I'd say that most Protestants count Catholics and fellow Christians. Being "born again" in the Protestant sense usually refers to confessing your sins and inviting Jesus into your heart in the form of a prayer. Catholics believe we are born again through Baptism. Of course, most Protestants don't believe the act of Baptism actually does anything, so their focus is on your faith in Christ and Baptism becomes a symbol of that faith. For Catholics, faith is just as important, but we believe God's grace performs miraculous works on our souls through His sacraments. It's viewed as salvation by works to some Protestants, so they would say we are not saved because they think we don't believe in salvation by grace alone.

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1286137365' post='2177658']
The Protestant services I've attended seemed to me to have more of a social atmosphere than a religious one. And while I strangely found the sermons and talks sort of soothing and comforting I got almost virtually no religious guidance from them. And I can't say that I really did any real praying in those churches either -- but boy did we sing some upbeat Jesus songs![/quote]

My experience in Reformed/Calvinist churches was quite different. We heard challenging preaching (which sometimes included teaching from the Church Fathers), learned about Scripture, held each other accountable for sin... but as good as all that is, I couldn't accept the theology of Believer's Baptism. They expected me to be baptized following a public profession of faith. Well, I know my faith... it's real, but it's weak. I find far more comfort resting in the grace of God offered once-for-all in Baptism than relying on my feeble faith to make a Baptism "valid."

[MithLuin]

You ask what the Bible teaches about marriage. There are a few key passages I can refer you to, though of course this isn't [i]everything[/i] that's in the Bible about marriage!

The first marriage:
[quote]Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

[i]Genesis 2:18-25[/i][/quote]

It is very important to point out that this marriage occurred [i]before[/i] the Fall, so Adam's relationship with his wife Eve is not something that fallen humanity is going to experience. The ease with which they knew and understood one another was a consequence of their original innocence, and thus it is easy to say that they loved one another truly.

Some people think the creation stories in Genesis are irrelevant, but they teach us very important things about the mind of God. Maybe not so much in the history department (they are quite mythical in style), but there's a lot there that we would be foolish to ignore. For instance, a common heresy is to think that the material world is evil, and only the spiritual is good/real. But in Genesis, when God creates each thing...he calls it [i]good[/i]. It's important to pay attention to the meaning of the story!

This passage is also important for understanding marriage, because when questioned about divorce, Jesus referred to it. It reveals God's original plan for humanity.

[quote]Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"

And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, `FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to giver her a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

[i]Matthew 19:3-12[/i][/quote]

Jesus refers to divorce as a perversion of the original intent of marriage because of the hardness of our hearts. Fallen man, ruled by concupiscence and lust, is not often able to freely and fully donate himself as a gift to his spouse. The concept of indissoluble marriage bonds is scary, as the disciples immediately realize! But avoiding marriage for that reason is hardly good, either. Jesus takes their revulsion and turns it around into something better...the evangelical counsel of celibate chastity. To live that life, one must recognize the good of marriage, and sacrifice it anyway.

St. Paul also references the passage in Genesis when he speaks of Christian marriage. But now, he is relating the mystery of Christ's relationship with the Church (the Bride of Christ) with the relationship between the spouses.

[quote]Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

[i]Ephesians 5:22-33[/i][/quote]

This passage has certainly gotten a bad rap over the years. You get the impression that people stopped reading after the first verse, taking this as an instruction for the wife's obedience....without getting to the part about the responsibility of the husband to lay down his life for his wife. So, sure, men could beat their wives and quote scripture, but that isn't what St. Paul said they ought to be doing. Christian marriage isn't a battle of the sexes, where each spouse is vying for dominance and control. It's about pouring out your own life for the other person (in different ways). If you both do that, then your relationship will be a loving one, because true love is about sacrifice, as Jesus demonstrated on the cross.


Other passages that are worth reading are the Book of Ruth, the Song of Songs and the book of Tobit.

[quote]Then Tobias exhorted the virgin, and said to her: Sara, arise, and let us pray to God today, and tomorrow, and the next day: because for these three nights we are joined to God: and when the third night is over, we will be in our own wedlock. For we are the children of saints, and we must not be joined together like heathens that know not God.

So they both arose, and prayed earnestly both together that health might be given them, And Tobias said: Lord God of our father, may the heavens and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains, and the rivers, and all thy creatures that are in them, bless thee. Thou madest Adam of the slime of the earth, and gavest him Eve for a helper. And now, Lord, thou knowest, that not for fleshly lust do I take my sister to wife, but only for the love of posterity, in which thy name may be blessed for ever and ever.

Sara also said: Have mercy on us, O Lord, have mercy on us, and let us grow old both together in health.

[i]Tobit 8:4-10[/i][/quote]

That prayer from their wedding night is one of the suggested passages to be used at Catholic weddings, though it's not the most popular one. There is of course more to the story: Sarah had been married 7 times, and each time, her husband died on their wedding night, because she was afflicted by a demon. The archangel Raphael assists Tobias by taking care of the demon, but as you can see here, he also begins their marriage with prayer and the right intentions. He [i]also[/i] refers to the primordial marriage in Genesis!

If you are interested in this topic, I suggest reading [i]Man and Woman He Created Them[/i] by Pope John Paul II (translated by Michael Waldstein). Otherwise known as 'The Theology of the Body'.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1286167593' post='2177737']
My experience in Reformed/Calvinist churches was quite different. We heard challenging preaching (which sometimes included teaching from the Church Fathers), learned about Scripture, held each other accountable for sin... but as good as all that is, I couldn't accept the theology of Believer's Baptism.
[/quote]

I know that during my time in studying apologetics (which definitely needs improvement on my part,) that there are so many moments in the writings of the early Church Fathers which affirm the beliefs and practices of Catholicism. I keep hearing about how Protestants in the seminary spend so much time studying the writings of the Church Fathers and I'm curious to know what they make of such Catholic statements.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1286336356' post='2178119']
I know that during my time in studying apologetics (which definitely needs improvement on my part,) that there are so many moments in the writings of the early Church Fathers which affirm the beliefs and practices of Catholicism. I keep hearing about how Protestants in the seminary spend so much time studying the writings of the Church Fathers and I'm curious to know what they make of such Catholic statements.
[/quote]

Just like Sacred Scripture, it comes down to interpretation.

I'm no expert either, but I have read some good Protestant interpretations of the Fathers. There was plenty of disagreement among early Church figures and even among those we regard as Fathers of the Church. It took an ecumenical council to get the Trinity settled three centuries after the Ascension of the Christ. Frankly, popular Catholic apologetics books have to simplify things quite a bit. Anything written for armchair theologians like us can't dive into every nuance and detail of Church history that you'd learn from earning a Doctorate.

As Catholicism and Orthodoxy are drawing steady interest from Protestants and mainline Protestantism continues slipping into irrelevancy, I've noticed some Reformed pastors like John Piper and Albert Mohler emphasizing the doctrine of salvation by faith alone as fundamental to the Gospel (as they see it). For those writings of the Fathers that clearly contradict sola fide, one explanation is they were still just "figuring things out."

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1286336356' post='2178119']
I know that during my time in studying apologetics (which definitely needs improvement on my part,) that there are so many moments in the writings of the early Church Fathers which affirm the beliefs and practices of Catholicism. I keep hearing about how Protestants in the seminary spend so much time studying the writings of the Church Fathers and I'm curious to know what they make of such Catholic statements.
[/quote]

In Scholarship when one disagrees with a part of the Tradition that must be accounted for, one does not contradict but instead "re-interprits" what was originally meant.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1286167593' post='2177737']
Can't say I've ever heard this. While marriage was taken very seriously by the Reformed-type churches I've attended, I don't think any of them would refuse marriage to a divorced believer if they felt the couple seeking marriage shared a healthy, holy relationship.
[/quote]

The [b]"Protestant Reformed Church"[/b] is a specific Protestant denomination -- like "Lutheran", "Presbyterian", etc. I discovered it when I did a search if there was a religion that wouldn't perform a church marriage for a divorcee. Here's a Wikipedia link: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformed_Churches_in_America"]Protestant Reformed Churches in America[/url]

[color="#FF0000"]"The PRC believes that marriage is a lifelong bond and that, although an individual may divorce his or her spouse for continued infidelity, the marriage bond is not dissolved apart from death. Hence, neither party is permitted to remarry while the other person is still living. Those who do divorce and remarry while their first spouse is still alive are considered adulterers, regardless of the circumstances of the divorce (Gritters, The Family: Foundations are Shaking)."[/color]

[southern california guy]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1286504479' post='2178464']
The [b]"Protestant Reformed Church"[/b] is a specific Protestant denomination -- like "Lutheran", "Presbyterian", etc. I discovered it when I did a search if there was a religion that wouldn't perform a church marriage for a divorcee. Here's a Wikipedia link: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformed_Churches_in_America"]Protestant Reformed Churches in America[/url]

[color="#FF0000"]"The PRC believes that marriage is a lifelong bond and that, although an individual may divorce his or her spouse for continued infidelity, the marriage bond is not dissolved apart from death. Hence, neither party is permitted to remarry while the other person is still living. Those who do divorce and remarry while their first spouse is still alive are considered adulterers, regardless of the circumstances of the divorce (Gritters, The Family: Foundations are Shaking)."[/color]
[/quote]

Incidentally there is a Protestant Reformed Church here in California a couple of hours drive from where I live. I actually drove up there one Sunday to check it out, but I got lost and ended up late and felt sheepish about coming in so late -- so I didn't. But it looked like the parking lot was jam crammed with people, and many people were parked up and down the road in front of the church. It looked popular.

[Peter John]

Catholics to Mormons:
"What do you know about your Heavenly Mother?
Would you like to know more?"
-- Peter John