Atonement

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]It is possible to understand St. Athanasius' words (below), "by offering to death," as indicating a ransom paid to death itself.

Notice also the phrase, "the sentencing of a substitute," which indicates that a sentence had been imposed that would be carried out, and the use of the word "debt."


Originally Posted by St. Athanasius
For this reason, then, He takes to Himself flesh capable of dying, so that this flesh, by partaking of the Word who is superior to all, might be worthy to suffer death in place of all, and might, because of the Word dwelling in it, remain incorruptible, so that from then on corruption might be stayed from everyone, by the grace of the resurrection. Then, by offering to death the body which He Himself had taken, as a sacrifice and offering free of every stain, He forthwith removed death from all His fellowmen, by the sentencing of a substitute. Since He, the Word of God, is over all, by offering His own temple and bodily component for the life of all, He surely satisfied the debt by His death. And thus, too, the incorruptible Son Of God, being joined with all by the similarity of flesh, He surely clothed all in incorruptibility through the promise of resurrection (St. Athanasius, Treatise on the Incarnation of the Word, 9,1).[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]It is possible to understand St. Athanasius' words (below), "by offering to death," as indicating a ransom paid to death itself.

Notice also the phrase, "the sentencing of a substitute," which indicates that a sentence had been imposed that would be carried out, and the use of the word "debt."


Originally Posted by St. Athanasius
For this reason, then, He takes to Himself flesh capable of dying, so that this flesh, by partaking of the Word who is superior to all, might be worthy to suffer death in place of all, and might, because of the Word dwelling in it, remain incorruptible, so that from then on corruption might be stayed from everyone, by the grace of the resurrection. Then, by offering to death the body which He Himself had taken, as a sacrifice and offering free of every stain, He forthwith removed death from all His fellowmen, by the sentencing of a substitute. Since He, the Word of God, is over all, by offering His own temple and bodily component for the life of all, He surely satisfied the debt by His death. And thus, too, the incorruptible Son Of God, being joined with all by the similarity of flesh, He surely clothed all in incorruptibility through the promise of resurrection (St. Athanasius, Treatise on the Incarnation of the Word, 9,1).[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]It is possible to understand St. Athanasius' words (below), "by offering to death," as indicating a ransom paid to death itself.

Notice also the phrase, "the sentencing of a substitute," which indicates that a sentence had been imposed that would be carried out, and the use of the word "debt."


Originally Posted by St. Athanasius
For this reason, then, He takes to Himself flesh capable of dying, so that this flesh, by partaking of the Word who is superior to all, might be worthy to suffer death in place of all, and might, because of the Word dwelling in it, remain incorruptible, so that from then on corruption might be stayed from everyone, by the grace of the resurrection. Then, by offering to death the body which He Himself had taken, as a sacrifice and offering free of every stain, He forthwith removed death from all His fellowmen, by the sentencing of a substitute. Since He, the Word of God, is over all, by offering His own temple and bodily component for the life of all, He surely satisfied the debt by His death. And thus, too, the incorruptible Son Of God, being joined with all by the similarity of flesh, He surely clothed all in incorruptibility through the promise of resurrection (St. Athanasius, Treatise on the Incarnation of the Word, 9,1).[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]It is possible to understand St. Athanasius' words (below), "by offering to death," as indicating a ransom paid to death itself.

Notice also the phrase, "the sentencing of a substitute," which indicates that a sentence had been imposed that would be carried out, and the use of the word "debt."


Originally Posted by St. Athanasius
For this reason, then, He takes to Himself flesh capable of dying, so that this flesh, by partaking of the Word who is superior to all, might be worthy to suffer death in place of all, and might, because of the Word dwelling in it, remain incorruptible, so that from then on corruption might be stayed from everyone, by the grace of the resurrection. Then, by offering to death the body which He Himself had taken, as a sacrifice and offering free of every stain, He forthwith removed death from all His fellowmen, by the sentencing of a substitute. Since He, the Word of God, is over all, by offering His own temple and bodily component for the life of all, He surely satisfied the debt by His death. And thus, too, the incorruptible Son Of God, being joined with all by the similarity of flesh, He surely clothed all in incorruptibility through the promise of resurrection (St. Athanasius, Treatise on the Incarnation of the Word, 9,1).[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]It is possible to understand St. Athanasius' words (below), "by offering to death," as indicating a ransom paid to death itself.

Notice also the phrase, "the sentencing of a substitute," which indicates that a sentence had been imposed that would be carried out, and the use of the word "debt."


Originally Posted by St. Athanasius
For this reason, then, He takes to Himself flesh capable of dying, so that this flesh, by partaking of the Word who is superior to all, might be worthy to suffer death in place of all, and might, because of the Word dwelling in it, remain incorruptible, so that from then on corruption might be stayed from everyone, by the grace of the resurrection. Then, by offering to death the body which He Himself had taken, as a sacrifice and offering free of every stain, He forthwith removed death from all His fellowmen, by the sentencing of a substitute. Since He, the Word of God, is over all, by offering His own temple and bodily component for the life of all, He surely satisfied the debt by His death. And thus, too, the incorruptible Son Of God, being joined with all by the similarity of flesh, He surely clothed all in incorruptibility through the promise of resurrection (St. Athanasius, Treatise on the Incarnation of the Word, 9,1).[/quote]

i suppose one could say the views im espousing here are 'substitutionary' in nature, in some sense. jesus conquered death, even though we couldn't.
as i said before, it's not that God has a conflicting nature per justice and mercy-- it's that God's nature is only that of mercy despite the wages of sin being death. in fact, this all would go on to say--- if the wages of sin is death, then Jesus came, and he conqured death. that's how immutible his mercy is.
(curse of law, be, do)
perhaps god saw fittting, that death exist, just so that he can extinguish it.
(and for death to be conquired, it must exist-- that might be said to why there's death to begin with)(we dont deserve a life without death, being mere creatures. but god insisted that be so, and created it such that we'd be in the 'we dont deserve it' phase, only to conquer it and be in hte 'it doesn't matter mercy' phase, thus fulfilling his immutable mercy)

Edited October 15, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

im reminded of a quote i read, before i ever knew much about nonwest views, even though i knew of them at least intuitively. i didn't have it all sorted out as much then, but the truth of the quote struck me enough, with its simplicty being enough, regardless of my abilty to argue the details of it.

St. John Chrysostom
"hell was taken captive by the Lord Who descended into it. It was laid waste, it was mocked, it was put to death, it was overthrown, it was bound." Homily to Pascha

[dairygirl4u2c]

the idea. we have free will. god wants us to choose him. we eat of the apple of knowledge, which creates the basis for sin, given we have the requisite knowledge and intent to sin, using our free will. without that apple, we'd not die in the garden, we'd go on living forever. but with free will necessarily comes sin. it's more that sin of its nature is something that causes death- it's not that God wills us to die per se. but, even though we disoby God by sinning, and we deserve death-- God with his immutable mercy gave sinners life, and even came, and despite the rules, and again with his immutable mercy, he conquered death. he's not one to hold people to the letter of the law, free will and what we know to be sin. and now, with our free will, and albeit with the imperfections of sin, we can still choose God and not die from our sins in the process.

Romans says that God was just letting it all go, and as the saints said, though, he did come to conquer death formally, for and by those who join with him.

Edited October 15, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[OraProMe]

Woooah, calm down.

[dairygirl4u2c]

'It should be clarified that from a Jewish perspective the purpose of the sacrifices was never to appease God, which is a Pagan concept, but to cleanse us (cf. Heb 9:13-14) and draw us near to God.'
"God is the initiator of forgiveness. God does not respond to what we do, we respond to what God does. Our repentance is in response to God’s love not the condition for it . The idea of appeasement is based on a pagan concept of god-like power - on a hurtful conception of what power and greatness are."

"The multitude of your sacrifices- what are they to me?" says the Lord . "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats… Stop bringing meaningless offerings!... wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow". (Isa 1:11,13,16-17)

Jesus did not lay down any doctrine here, but stated,"'Go learn what it means that, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,"
(Matt. 12:7-8, Mk 2:23-28, Lk 6:1-5).

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; And the knowledge of God, more than burnt offering". (Hosea 6:6)

"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise". (Psalm 51: 16-17)

Yahweh does not need a bribe to convince him to be just or merciful because he is the very definition of justice and mercy. God does not need an appeasement to forgive. On the contrary Jesus tells us that Yahweh is our model for loving our enemies:
" But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous… Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. " (Math 5:44-45, 48)


"The atonement is the incarnation, the transforming or being the 1st born of many brethren. The purchase or ransom is His life, lived as a son of man, a sacrafice as I might sacrafice for my wife and children. "
The true gift to God is to “wash and make yourselves clean” and to seek justice by defending the oppressed and the broken. The Hebrew word translated as "sacrifice" is korban. The root karev means to "draw close." Sacrifices are to help us draw close to God. The New Testament understanding of sacrifice as an act of self-sacrificing love traces back to this Old Testament understanding of the korban. There is certainly here the concept of vicarious atonement, meaning that through the sacrifice we are reconciled to God, but not understood in the legal context of a requirement or an appeasement but as an act of communion.

"Jesus would not back down. He stood up for love, for the small, for you and me. even though he knew that it would cost him his life. So the Powers stripped him naked, exposed him and shamed him. They crucified him as a common criminal to show that no one can oppose the System. But when the people saw that the Powers had killed Love, they realized what a travesty of justice this was. The people realized what a sham the oppressive System was. As Love hung on that cross the authorities were exposed, unmasked in their hatred. The illusion was lifted."

"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Colossians 2:15)

By the cross God triumphed over the System and crucified it, he nailed the law to the cross.

"Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14)

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1).

"He crucified what would condemn us and keep us captive, he took the monopoly away from the temple, tearing the curtain in two. He took away the power of condemnation to keep us oppressed. He broke the vicious cycle that death had us in. God in effect said to the Powers and Authorities: "Death, this child is mine, you have no rights over her. You will not define who she is anymore. She doesn't belong to you" ."

----------------

"Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph 6:12)

"to escape that enslaving destructive "world" we are trapped in, we must mirror Christ's death and resurrection: we say to that old identity of hurtfulness and victimhood "I am dead to you. I don't belong to you anymore" and we are raised to a new identity as God's loved children. By dying to what has killed us we say to that abusive system, to that hatefulness in us, that we will no longer be its victim. Thus Paul writes, "
"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world".(Galatians 6:14)
"Having died to the grip of that hurtful identity, we are then are "resurrected", raised up into a new identity - born again. Practically, that means we let God's love into our lives in a personal relationship, and as we grow in that relationship with God, learning to open our lives to his love, God's love forms how we see ourselves. Through experiencing and living in the love of God we replace the hurtful identity of estrangement and learn to see ourselves as God sees us: as his beloved child. "

------

"I realize that this may seem threatening for some readers, so I want to clarify that these conditions can just as easily describe someone inside the church as someone outside. This is not a matter of being converted to a religion, but being reconciled to Life. Many people inside the religion of Christianity still are estranged from life and alienated from God's love, God does not need the cross to forgive us. But some of us needed the cross to be able to really accept that forgiveness. God does not need the cross to love us. But many of us needed the cross to really grasp that love.
often times precisely because of a toxic faith environment encountered in the church. God seems distant to them; they feel condemned and unfulfilled. I know many people like this, people who are trying to break free from the yoke of legalism and spiritual abuse and enter into a grace-oriented understanding of Christianity. Whatever religious credentials we possess, whatever our condition is, God looks at our hearts and encounters us individually, personally, just as we are. "

per the self defense stuff. all the talk about the law, and not holding people to it. id say again, enforced more clearly by the tangent of this thread, that perhaps jesus could have engaged in self defense, he was entitled to, but he didn't do it.

Edited October 17, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

http://www.therebelgod.com/

[dairygirl4u2c]

"Although Jesus' life and death was not the fulfillment of a legal system [DG, semantics per the author's intent here, but jesus said he came to fulfill the law], it was the fulfillment of the relational model of love. Jesus fulfilled the true law by modeling perfect humanity. Jesus shows us what it means to be truly human by modeling what a life lived in submission to the God of love looks like. Jesus' way was the way of love, and Jesus knew full well that if he stayed on the road he was on, defending the poor and confronting spiritual corruption and evil, that this course would inevitably mean his death. The cross was no accident. God had a plan. God did not require Jesus' death. Hate killed Jesus when he stood up for love. But God used this tragedy to bring about life. Through the way of suffering, Life overcame Death. Jesus was not just a martyr for a cause, his death was the way that led to resurrection - the restoration of all things. It was the way of the cross that led to life and the resurrection and victory. In Aikido one uses the force of an attacker's blow to throw them, and God did exactly this on the cross. In God's economy, evil was defeated not with violence but with nonviolence, not with the power of hate but with the power of love. Life defeated Death. God raised Jesus from the dead so we could see that in the final analysis love is stronger than hate and death. It is this way of the cross that leads to our being liberated from the trap of the Powers - raised up out of a life governed by Death to a new identity ruled by Life. We enter this liberation as we embrace God's gift of grace and enter into Life by following the way of the cross - dying to what has killed us and being raised to a new identity - seeing ourselves through Jesus' eyes."

Edited October 17, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

"I will ransom them from Hell. I will redeem them from Death
O Death I will be thy plague. O Hell I will be thy destruction" (Hosea 13:14)

"Unlike Satisfaction-Doctrine which focuses on the death of Jesus, the pivotal event of Christus Victor is the resurrection. It was through the resurrection that death was overcome and where love emerged as victor. It was in the power and hope of the resurrection that the first-century church set their hope that they too would be raised up. That it was worth it to believe in love in a world that could be so loveless; to fight for justice and reform in a world that could be so unjust, to believe in yourself in a world that calls you the least. The resurrection was God's definitive yes to life. It said that in the final analysis love conquers all, and nothing, not death or hell or trouble or persecution or sword can separate us from that love. This is Christus Victor. It is about liberation. It is about revolution. It is about God's battle to break through to us with his love."

Edited October 17, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

"We know that, in the final analysis, love is stronger than death, so we can have the courage to risk loving scandalously in a dark world. Our eyes are opened to see the whole picture - enabling us to live fully and freely. It is not escapist but fully life-embracing. It is a faith that does not take us out of the world, but overcomes the world, and places us in that world fully engaged, daring to care for ourselves and others, working to alleviate suffering and fighting injustice. We live between the "already" and the "not yet" of the resurrection. We see in Christ the first fruits of the victory of the resurrection and have hope in a world at war still very much subject to sin and suffering. It is like a letter received behind enemy lines saying, "You have not been forgotten. I love you. I am coming to get you out. " (compare Jn 14:18-20,27). We long for the resurrection of all things, the transformation of our lives and of society into God's reign of compassion, for an end to suffering and death. But we do this knowing the outcome is clear. Satan has been dealt the death blow on the cross. Love is stronger than death. That is the hope of the resurrection."

"The hope of the resurrection is a protest, a declaration for life - and that requires courage. The courage to embrace life with both hands, to risk caring, loving, reaching out. It is a holding on to hope in spite of our brokenness, in spite of trouble or hardship or doubt, because we realize how incredible this love is that has taken hold of us. The hope of the resurrection is the hope that comes when all hope is gone. As Peter Gomes writes,

"Genuine belief is maintained in spite of circumstances that would undermine belief and not simply because of circumstances that would confirm it. It takes a great deal of courage to believe in love in the face of hatred, life in the face of death, day in the dark of night, good in the face of evil".

That is the bold hope of the resurrection. It is the courage that Jesus demonstrated when he, on the cross, abandoned by his friends, mocked and misunderstood by the onlookers, overwhelmed with pain and torn with sorrow called out in despair, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" and heard nothing - the heavens absent of comfort, as black as night. And there, in that darkness, Jesus, in one final act of courage and trust, set his hope on grace and cast his spirit into the mystery of God: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit"

It was that sacrifice, that faith, that holding on to love in the blackness of night that defeated death and raised Jesus from the grave. Sown in weakness, raised in power. This is the way of the cross, and there is power there. Nothing, not even death, can stop that kind of power. It is the power of love. The victory of God."

Edited October 18, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I've been spending a lot of time lately looking at the way the Old Testament is quoted in the New, and I've found something pretty surprising: 9 times out of 10 the New Testament citation completely flips the original meaning of the Old Testament passage on its head! Take for example Paul's Easter message in 1 Cor 15 where he writes that "The last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). Paul then quotes the familiar line "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" and declares that "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 15:55-57). As Paul is using the phrase, Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? is addressing a defeated death: where is your sting now, O death? For you have been defeated by Christ! But take a look at the original passage in Hosea that Paul is quoting from:

"Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death?
O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your destruction?
Compassion is hidden from my eyes." (Hos 13:14 NRSV)

The sense here is the opposite of what Paul is saying. It is about inviting death to come and destroy Israel in punishment. The NET translation makes this difference quite clear:

"Will I deliver them from the power of Sheol? No, I will not!
Will I redeem them from death? No, I will not!
O Death, bring on your plagues! O Sheol, bring on your destruction!
My eyes will not show any compassion! (Hos 13:14 NET)


Now in both Hebrew and Greek there are no question marks (or any punctuation at all), so you can't really tell whether it says "Shall I redeem them from Death?" (a question) or "I Shall redeem them from Death" (a promise), but it is pretty significant that most English translations (NAB, NASB, NCV, NRSV, TEV, CEV, NLT, NET) read this as a rhetorical question that implies a negative answer "Do you seriously think I will rescue you from death!?" The only exceptions to this reading are the NIV and KJV. Similarly, most English versions translate the part quoted by Paul to mean "What's keeping you death? Come!" meaning Hosea is not mocking death, but calling for death. Now how do we know that this is what Hosea meant? Context. Look at the last line: "Compassion is hidden from my eyes" and then read the whole chapter too and you'll see it ends by saying,

"They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open." (Hos 13:16 NIV)

This was not good news when Hosea said it, but Paul has turned it around. He has taken a passage which in its original context was about death being poured out on people and made it about humanity being liberated from death because of the Resurrection where Christ overcame death. Again, if you look at how the NT quotes the OT you will find that most of the time it is reversing the original context, subverting it, redeeming it. It takes the original context which says "I hate my enemies and want to destroy them" and makes it about redemption, forgiveness, and making things new again. I love that.

I could go on for pages and pages with other examples of this. If you want to see for yourself, just pick any passage from the NT that is quoting from the OT and then read the whole OT chapter to see what the original context was. You'll see that over and over the NT turns the original meaning around. If you ever wondered why it was that the disciples were so shocked that Jesus had to die on the cross, it's because this was a complete reversal of everything they had learned about the messiah from the prophets. They had learned from reading the OT prophets to expect the messiah to come as a warrior and kill all the bad people. The NT takes all of these messianic prophesies that are about violence and destruction and reverses their meaning. Instead of being about an oppressed people getting revenge, it makes it into a story where all of us need mercy and grace.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

yeah i'd say now that ive been thinking about it. per the 'self defense' question.
jesus could have legitimately engaged in selfdefense. and i doubt God would hold it against him. but, he chose not to hold them against what he was 'entitled' to. it would have been 'ungodly' of him, sure, to attack, per God's love and given the situation of being cornered and at the end of his rope. but not 'held againt him' at all.
i could be wrong, and that radical pascifism is what Jesus practiced, such that self defense wasn't even an option. i do think it was an option, though.

as one of many examples for why. jesus said if his kingdom were of this world, those of hte kingdom would be up and arms in saving him. but on the other hand, he said not to attack when he was being arrested 'those who live by the sword will die by the sword' he told his friends. and he also referred to judas 'friend, do what you came to do' per turning him in... indicating he wasn't holding against anyone. we also see jesus saying to go get a sword, if you dont have one, at one point... indicating it's not inherently wrong
we do know that jesus ran away before, when they were going to try and kill him. but i wonder if this time he didn't, cause they came as a mob, and perhaps it wasn' possible to run away. he just gave in.
and it helps to think about the fact that they didn't even know what they were doing, in a deeper sense 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do'

so all this 'he committed suicie' stuff, with either throeies i have, not at all. one isn't required to do self defense. that's the onlyu way it might even remotely be suicide, is if it was required for him to attack back.

Edited October 23, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c