Need Baptism Help Asap!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1285849085' post='2176911']
I must say, in order to give this family the benefit of the doubt, I know a family that is very strongly Catholic, and their son had a child and was in a situation in which it was questionable whether or not the child would receive Baptism, because the mother of the child was very much against it. Though they knew it was far from the most desirable situation, they were desperate for the baby to be baptized, and yes, considered having it done by a Greek Orthodox priest they knew who was willing to baptize him. Anyway ... I think when it comes to faithful Catholics who are considering this, it's more a situation of "Baptism is necessary for salvation, and the baptism is certainly valid in this other church, so let's get it done asap!" Especially for "old school" Catholics, they realize the incredible importance of this Sacrament, and so while on the outside it may seem like, "How could they be good Catholics if they are considering getting the baby baptized in a Lutheran or Methodist church?!?!" ... sometimes the intentions and convictions of the people in the situation aren't what they seem! That's why sometimes it's good to at least give the benefit of the doubt



St. Michael, why is the current parish not giving a "release"? (and by "release" I'm assuming you mean they won't baptize the child earlier than three months even though they have a letter from the chaplain that they've been faithfully attending Mass on base). Are there any other parishes in the area who would honor the letter from the chaplain?


For those who are following this thread, don't you think it rather unfair that a parish wouldn't baptize the baby sooner since they received a letter from the chaplain at Ft. Bragg stating the family was in regular attendance at Mass there? This family just moved to the area, so of course they aren't established at the parish yet, and they are relying on the recommendation of the chaplain, who has given them a good recommendation!
[/quote]
As Miss Scripture already said, in an emergency ANYONE (of ANY faith, or even non-faith) can baptize with the proper intention. See [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2W.HTM"]Canon 861 S. 2[/url]

This includes the parents.

One of my nieces was born prematurely and was in danger of dying. Her father baptized her in the NICU, because a priest wasn't readily available. That counts as a licit and valid baptism. Note that this is in the case of necessity, not in the case of "things just aren't going the way we want them to go." Baptism is about the person being baptized, not about who can be in attendance to see it happen.

When a child (or other person) has been licitly baptized by someone other than the ordinary minister, you don't need a "do-over" to somehow make it valid; however, after discussion with a priest, it might be best to do a conditional baptism, which basically means that "we don't know whether the first was valid, so we're doing it again just to be sure." But, conditional baptism shouldn't be done unless there is serious reason that the initial baptism wasn't valid. For further reading, see [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM"]Canons 864-871[/url]

[Cherie]

[quote name='Terra Firma' timestamp='1285865022' post='2176953']
As Miss Scripture already said, in an emergency ANYONE (of ANY faith, or even non-faith) can baptize with the proper intention. See [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2W.HTM"]Canon 861 S. 2[/url]

This includes the parents.

One of my nieces was born prematurely and was in danger of dying. Her father baptized her in the NICU, because a priest wasn't readily available. That counts as a licit and valid baptism. Note that this is in the case of necessity, not in the case of "things just aren't going the way we want them to go." Baptism is about the person being baptized, not about who can be in attendance to see it happen.

When a child (or other person) has been licitly baptized by someone other than the ordinary minister, you don't need a "do-over" to somehow make it valid; however, after discussion with a priest, it might be best to do a conditional baptism, which basically means that "we don't know whether the first was valid, so we're doing it again just to be sure." But, conditional baptism shouldn't be done unless there is serious reason that the initial baptism wasn't valid. For further reading, see [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM"]Canons 864-871[/url]
[/quote]

Right - but as far as I understand the situation, their child isn't in any immediate danger of dying. And for the family in the situation I described, the child wasn't in danger of dying, either. If he had been, I'm sure they would have done it themselves anyway. And to be honest, while it is "completely illicit" (according to a Dominican priest I know), I think the family just baptized the baby themselves, and then they had the "formal ceremony" of a conditional baptism when the mother was willing to allow it. [And for myself, I'd like to do it in the hospital! Every baby is "in danger of dying", in my opinion -- what about SIDS? I'm terrified of SIDS! It comes completely without warning!]

I guess I understand the situation like this: they moved from a military base to a home in North Carolina, and their child was born sometime shortly before/after their move. I think it *should* be perfectly acceptable for the pastor of their new parish to receive a letter of recommendation from the chaplain at the Catholic chapel on base stating they were regular Mass attendees, etc, and the new pastor would baptize the child as soon as he can. It seems like in this situation, however, the pastor of the new parish is not accepting the letter from the chaplain and is insisting they have three months worth of Mass attendance/classes at his own parish in order to "prove" they are practicing Catholics. To me, that is unfortunate. Not everyone has the luxury of being well-established at a parish when their child is born--why would it be a problem to accept a letter of recommendation from the pastor of place you came from?

Edited September 30, 2010 by CherieMadame

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1285866488' post='2176957']
Right - but as far as I understand the situation, their child isn't in any immediate danger of dying. And for the family in the situation I described, the child wasn't in danger of dying, either. If he had been, I'm sure they would have done it themselves anyway. And to be honest, while it is "completely illicit" (according to a Dominican priest I know), I think the family just baptized the baby themselves, and then they had the "formal ceremony" of a conditional baptism when the mother was willing to allow it. [And for myself, I'd like to do it in the hospital! Every baby is "in danger of dying", in my opinion -- what about SIDS? I'm terrified of SIDS! It comes completely without warning!]

I guess I understand the situation like this: they moved from a military base to a home in North Carolina, and their child was born sometime shortly before/after their move. I think it *should* be perfectly acceptable for the pastor of their new parish to receive a letter of recommendation from the chaplain at the Catholic chapel on base stating they were regular Mass attendees, etc, and the new pastor would baptize the child as soon as he can. It seems like in this situation, however, the pastor of the new parish is not accepting the letter from the chaplain and is insisting they have three months worth of Mass attendance/classes at his own parish in order to "prove" they are practicing Catholics. To me, that is unfortunate. Not everyone has the luxury of being well-established at a parish when their child is born--why would it be a problem to accept a letter of recommendation from the pastor of place you came from?
[/quote]
Re-reading this, it sounds like the church that they used to attend will do it, provided the one they attend now says it is okay. It has not been stated if they have anything from the former church, telling the current church anything.

[Cherie]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1285867379' post='2176961']
Re-reading this, it sounds like the church that they used to attend will do it, provided the one they attend now says it is okay. It has not been stated if they have anything from the former church, telling the current church anything.
[/quote]

Aha, now I understand. I misunderstood the situation (I'm blaming it on the pregnancy!)

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1285868718' post='2176968']
Aha, now I understand. I misunderstood the situation (I'm blaming it on the pregnancy!)
[/quote]
Sounds like a good excuse to me.

[StMichael]

As a former RCIA team leader and youth minister, please guide me where it says such a thing as a preclude to baptism?

Both parents can be fallen away Catholics and the child can still be baptized. The God parents are the ones who must answer for the child, not the parents during baptism.

This isn't some closed club with a special knock, especially for infants.

Ft. Bragg will do it. The local RC Church needs to provide them a letter. The local RC Church has not done so and they have a window where the Father will be back from Afghanistan and will return almost immediately after. Not to return for months to a year.

Simple.

There is nothing I can do to change this, but am stunned at some of the responses here.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1285851401' post='2176916']
So I assume that whiile this drama is going on they are presenting themselves at Mass at a specific parish every week? Introduced themselves? Signed up for parish activities? The parents have the right to ask for baptism, but the Church has the responsibility to make sure its not a one -shot deal on the part of the parents. Frustrating -yes. But isn't baptism important enough to prepare for in the same way we prepare for a wedding? After all you don't usually present yourself to the rectory and annnounce you want to be married the next week. Threatening to go somewhere else is like the wedding couple saying if you don't comply we will run to the local JP.
[/quote]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1285871142' post='2176978']
As a former RCIA team leader and youth minister, please guide me where it says such a thing as a preclude to baptism?

Both parents can be fallen away Catholics and the child can still be baptized. The God parents are the ones who must answer for the child, not the parents during baptism.

This isn't some closed club with a special knock, especially for infants.

Ft. Bragg will do it. The local RC Church needs to provide them a letter. The local RC Church has not done so and they have a window where the Father will be back from Afghanistan and will return almost immediately after. Not to return for months to a year.

Simple.

There is nothing I can do to change this, but am stunned at some of the responses here.
[/quote]
The Church has a responsibility to ensure that there is a founded hope that the child will be raised Catholic.

The parents have a responsibility to ensure that their child is baptized.

Although it would be nice for that to happen while the father is stateside, that is not a requirement. His presence is not necessary for his child's baptism to proceed.

[Jaime]

Then its good that you are not teaching RCIA anymore or youth ministry. Your understanding of Church teaching is seriously flawed. The parents are the PRIMARY teachers of the Catholic faith to their children

[quote][b]2223 [/b]Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by [i]creating a home[/i] where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for [i]education in the virtues[/i]. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones." Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them: [/quote]

The role of the godparents is to assist. The Church has an obvious responsibility to insure (as best as possible) that the parents will take that role seriously. There are tons of cases every day where parents show up to a church looking to have their child baptized. And they have absolutely no intention of raising the child Catholic or ever returning to the church.


[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1285871142' post='2176978']
As a former RCIA team leader and youth minister, please guide me where it says such a thing as a preclude to baptism?

Both parents can be fallen away Catholics and the child can still be baptized. The God parents are the ones who must answer for the child, not the parents during baptism.

This isn't some closed club with a special knock, especially for infants.

Ft. Bragg will do it. The local RC Church needs to provide them a letter. The local RC Church has not done so and they have a window where the Father will be back from Afghanistan and will return almost immediately after. Not to return for months to a year.

Simple.

There is nothing I can do to change this, but am stunned at some of the responses here.


[/quote]

[Seven77]

[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]Going back to the original post: [/size][/font][/color][color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]Every Church is a very shady name for a Catholic church---i would look for another parish. [/size][/font][/color]

[Wikitiki]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1285875058' post='2176998']
[color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Going back to the original post: [/size][/font][/color][color="#595959"][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Every Church is a very shady name for a Catholic church---i would look for another parish. [/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
...

i lol'd

[StMichael]

No need to attack me personally. You haven't any clue of the work I have done.

Secondly, it is the God Parents who answer for the child, during the actual baptism. Lastly, the parents are both Catholic, because they are new to a parish shouldn't prevent them from receiving a letter to allow them to have their child baptized where they can, in this case Ft. Bragg.

As an RCIA team leader, we saw as many as 1 million new Catholics come into the faith, in one calendar year in NYC. One in particular were 2 muslim children who's parents were not Catholic nor were they converting. Both these children were 12-13 years old. They went through RCIA and were baptized, etc. at the Easter Vigil.

There was no litmus test for the parents. Again, you have no clue if they are devout or not. It isn't just babies of devout Catholics that get baptized and you are an [mod]personal attack-MIKolbe[/mod] to suggest that be the case.

The role of the God Parent is to be a living example of the Church to the child, yes I agree that the home should be solid in Catholic faith, but that is not a requirement for a child to be baptized.

I'm amazed, appalled and much more at some of the people here who post, really am.

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1285873831' post='2176992']
Then its good that you are not teaching RCIA anymore or youth ministry. Your understanding of Church teaching is seriously flawed. The parents are the PRIMARY teachers of the Catholic faith to their children



The role of the godparents is to assist. The Church has an obvious responsibility to insure (as best as possible) that the parents will take that role seriously. There are tons of cases every day where parents show up to a church looking to have their child baptized. And they have absolutely no intention of raising the child Catholic or ever returning to the church.
[/quote]

[AccountDeleted]

Perhaps an online forum isn't the best place to get advice about something like this, because it seems to become heated as different opinions are stated. I would think that the best thing St Michael, if it is possible, would be for you to contact the priestor priests involved directly and get further clarification about the situation. We are being asked to understand the point of view of the family, but the clergy involved also have a point of view and maybe we need to give them the benefit of the doubt as well. This situation should be handled between the clergy and the family, but if you are a close personal friend who feels very strongly (which you appear to do so) then I perhaps approaching the priest(s) directly would be the next best step.

This thread is becoming a little ... well it just needs a hug.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1285851401' post='2176916']
So I assume that whiile this drama is going on they are presenting themselves at Mass at a specific parish every week? Introduced themselves? Signed up for parish activities? [b]The parents have the right to ask for baptism, but the Church has the responsibility to make sure its not a one -shot deal on the part of the parents. Frustrating -yes. But isn't baptism important enough to prepare for in the same way we prepare for a wedding[/b]?
[/quote]

yessssss!


If they can get the baby baptized at Bragg then why don't they just re-register with the parish there and go ahead and do it on post?

[StMichael]

Ft. Bragg will do it as a favor, but otherwise would not as he is no longer active duty.

They need a letter from a civilian parish citing that they can have the baby baptized there.

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1285906096' post='2177189']
yessssss!


If they can get the baby baptized at Bragg then why don't they just re-register with the parish there and go ahead and do it on post?
[/quote]

[IcePrincessKRS]

Really? 'Cause we have LOTS of retirees at our on post parish here. Seems odd. They didn't even ask us if we were active duty, as I recall, I just filled out the registration paper and we were good to go. (My son wasn't Baptized here due to complications I briefly outlines earlier in the thread, but my daughter will be making her First Communion here.)