Obama

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1285631749' post='2176322']
Short answer--no.

Long answer--absolutely not.
[/quote]

[Winchester]

Tyranny is condemned by the Church. So is theft. Socialism is clearly theft.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1285701369' post='2176494']
Tyranny is condemned by the Church. So is theft. Socialism is clearly theft.
[/quote]

Well you see some people would say that capitalism is theft too. Some people would say that socialism is not theft. Others would say that both are theft. Still others would say all forms of taxation are theft. The Church does not say that any particular economic system is theft and she is quite comfortable with systems that have a lot of government involvement (Europe) or little involvement (ours). At the time of the election, if you took a poll at the Vatican, President Obama would have come out slightly ahead. In 2004 if you took the same poll, GWB came out slightly ahead of Kerry. Of course the Vatican does not equal the Church. But what I am saying is she is not wedded to any particular ideology about the size of government. She is wed to human rights and social justice including justice for the unborn.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1285702374' post='2176498']
Well you see some people would say that capitalism is theft too. Some people would say that socialism is not theft. [/quote]
Did I support capitalism in my statement?

[rizz_loves_jesus]

In regards to taxation, what ever happened to "give to Caeser what is Caeser's?"

[Winchester]

I'm not advancing the argument that all taxation is theft.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

Oh I know. I was responding more to the fact that Maggie said that some Catholics think all taxation is a form of theft. That's a ridiculous view.

[Winchester]

Oh. Sorry, I'm all defensive right now.

[Maggyie]

For the record I do not think all taxation is theft, either, nor was I saying anybody is defending capitalism. My point is that it's fine to think the argument that

A. The Church is against tyranny
B. Obama and his nominees are in favor of health care reform and big government
C. HCR and big government are examples of tyranny
D. Therefore the Church is against big government

is invalid. Because the Church is not against big government. Or small government. The size of government (and interpretation of it as tyranny or not) is an ideological concern, not, for the most part, a Christian concern. I can't believe i am defending big government, because I am voting a Republican ticket this year (and did in 08 too) but it's the truth.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Maggie

[Winchester]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1285713928' post='2176568']
For the record I do not think all taxation is theft, either, nor was I saying anybody is defending capitalism. My point is that it's fine to think the argument that

A. The Church is against tyranny
B. Obama and his nominees are in favor of health care reform and big government
C. HCR and big government are examples of tyranny
D. Therefore the Church is against big government

is invalid. Because the Church is not against big government. Or small government. The size of government (and interpretation of it as tyranny or not) is an ideological concern, not, for the most part, a Christian concern. I can't believe i am defending big government, because I am voting a Republican ticket this year (and did in 08 too) but it's the truth.
[/quote]
I didn't mention "big government," either.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

Haha. Chill Winchester, I don't think anyone's attacking you

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1285699229' post='2176484']
Yes, it is wrong... however I don't know who to believe about whether the health care bill funds it or not. The Dems are all screaming "nooo it doesn't cover it! Stop lying!" and the GOP is all "your Congressman voted to fund abortion! Vote him out and put our guy in instead." Everybody has a bias, my mind is an ideology-free zone so I like non-biased sources.[/quote]
One of the first things Obama did as President was reverse the Mexico City Policy barring federal funding of overseas abortions, as has been pointed out twice in this thread. He did this January 23, 2009, so it's historical fact, not the crazed prediction of some GOP fear-monger.

That definitely sounds like deliberate and public support of abortion to me (with taxpayer dollars), but obviously that's just my crazy ideology talking. I guess I'll bow to your superior ideology-free mind.

[quote][url="http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/abortion-which-side-is-fabricating/"]http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/abortion-which-side-is-fabricating/[/url]

seems like it has a good non-biased take on it. However it makes it sound like the decision whether to fund or not to fund has not been made yet... like most of the laws it is the faceless bureaucrats who get the final say...[/quote]
From your "non-biased" website:
[quote]The truth is that bills now before Congress don’t require federal money to be used for supporting abortion coverage. So the president is right to that limited extent. [b]But it’s equally true that House and Senate legislation would allow a new "public" insurance plan to cover abortions, despite language added to the House bill that technically forbids using public funds to pay for them. Obama has said in the past that "reproductive services" would be covered by his public plan, so it’s likely that any new federal insurance plan would cover abortion unless Congress expressly prohibits that. Low- and moderate-income persons who would choose the "public plan" would qualify for federal subsidies to purchase it. Private plans that cover abortion also could be purchased with the help of federal subsidies. Therefore, we judge that the president goes too far when he calls the statements that government would be funding abortions "fabrications."[/b][/quote]
Just sounds like more typical two-faced weaseling from Obama to me.

If you think the Dem-controlled Congress will pass anything to prohibit abortion, you're deluding yourself. The Dems at the national level (being beholden to the very powerful abortion lobby) have never met a pro-abortion measure they didn't like.

[Winchester]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1285718050' post='2176593']
Haha. Chill Winchester, I don't think anyone's attacking you
[/quote]
Who are you calling paranoid?

[Socrates]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1285647101' post='2176395']
i dunno.. i think you either need to abstain from voting as USAirways says... or choose how you want to kill people...directly through allowing abortion etc, or indirectly through poor environmental policy leading to scarce natural resources and severe natural disasters...
[/quote]
Aw, of course! Why didn't I think of that?

If Obama hadn't won the presidency, we'd all be starving to death or being killed by various apocalyptic natural disasters a la [i]The Day After Tomorrow, [/i]due to the GOP's evil murderous environmental policies.

Since Obama in his Merciful Benevolence has saved us all from this horrific fate, we shouldn't begrudge that he supports the direct killing of innocent babies.

Gotta put it all in perspective.



All hail Dear Leader!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1285702374' post='2176498']
Well you see some people would say that capitalism is theft too. Some people would say that socialism is not theft. Others would say that both are theft. Still others would say all forms of taxation are theft. The Church does not say that any particular economic system is theft and she is quite comfortable with systems that have a lot of government involvement (Europe) or little involvement (ours). At the time of the election, if you took a poll at the Vatican, President Obama would have come out slightly ahead. In 2004 if you took the same poll, GWB came out slightly ahead of Kerry. Of course the Vatican does not equal the Church. But what I am saying is she is not wedded to any particular ideology about the size of government. She is wed to human rights and social justice including justice for the unborn.
[/quote]
Socialism in all its forms has been soundly condemned by the Church.