Understanding The Dark Night Of The Senses

[ExCorde]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1297961889' post='2213307']
a nice little talk Pope Benedict gave on Juan de la Cruz at the audience yesterday:
[/quote]

Yeah! [i]Ze Darrk Night of ze Soul[/i]...

Transcription:

[i](...) One of the themes much developed by John was that of the purification of the soul: by means of created things, we can discover traces of the living God in this world. Faith, however, is the unique means by which we can come to know God as he is in himself. The demanding process of purification, at times active and at others passive, requires our determined effort, but it is God who is the real centre; all man can do is dispose himself and humble himself before the loving work of God in the soul. In this sense, John is for us a model of humble dedication and of faithful perseverance on the road to spiritual maturity.

[/i]We'll have to wait a bit for the rest of it I suppose.

Here's the[b][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110202_en.html"][b] full Audience about St. Teresa of Ávila[/b][/url][/b] only a few weeks ago. I also loved and took a lot from the one about [b][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110112_en.html"][b]St. Catherine of Genoa[/b][/url][/b] last month.

Edited February 17, 2011 by ExCorde

[kafka]

you're right it is usually longer.

[Catherine Therese]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1285373662' post='2175784']
I think you hit the nail on the head. As people grow deeper in the spiritual life, they can move onto contemplative prayer, and may not go back to meditation like before.

In the "Prayer Quests" video series by Fr. Dubay, he describes meditation wonderfully.
[/quote]

I've read a lot about this transition from meditation to contemplation, too, but what I don't understand is - what is the role of Scripture in one's life when one ceases the practice of meditation?

[Debra Little]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1285880918' post='2177025']
How does one differentiate between:

Clinical depression
Dark night of the soul
Dark night of the senses

?
[/quote]

Oh believe me there is a difference. I am bipolar and therefore I know what clinical depression and mania are. And they have nothing to do with your
soul. It's all about a chemical imbalance in the brain. It is all about emotions and moods and how they affect one mentally.

It's not so hard really for me to tell the difference between when I am depressed because of a circumstance(es) or because I've just plain
crashed. My term for going from mania to depression. And it really does feel like that. I know when something is spiritual in nature or
purely emotional. What is hard is when you come before God and feel absolutely nothing. That doesn't matter. All that matters is that we love
God and come to Him in faith.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='corban711' timestamp='1286438058' post='2178316']
Oh yeah...and for those Carmelites...meditation is basically what we do in prayer to get to God...slowly reading over the Scriptures, focusing on a certain truth of the Faith to gain deeper understanding, using your imagination to put yourself in a passage of Scripture either as a participant in the scene or just watching it unfold (what do you see? hear? feel?) etc. Contemplation would be what God does in us. In infused prayer He will suspend your reasoning, thoughts, or imaginations to fill you with Himself and His loving presence.
[/quote]

I would really like to have my thoughts suspended, even if for a couple of minutes lol.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1285167959' post='2175293']
Right now I am studying the various stages of the spiritual life and Christian perfection. I've read St. Teresa of Avila and some St. John of the Cross as spiritual reading in the past (and actually, I guess T of A as part of study for a class, too), and I have to admit that sometimes they both made me go

Since reading an amazing book ([i]Christian Perfection and Contemplation According St Thomas and St John of the Cross[/i] by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange), I've been able to understand a little more those crazy/amesome Carmelite saints.

Anyways, not the point. The point is that there's a particular part of the Dark Night of the Senses that I don't understand... and that's the cessation of meditation. What does that mean? Obviously I understand that discursive meditation no longer occurs (as frequently? at all?), but I guess what I'm asking is the practical implications... Does that mean a soul no longer sits with Sacred Scripture? No longer receives insights? That would seem strange to me-- you look to the great mystics and they all have such a deep understanding of Sacred Scripture and have clearly... meditated? on it often... and surely not just prior to their progression in the spiritual life.

My only thought is that the [i]mode[/i] of receiving insights must change at this progression in the spiritual life. Rather than receiving insights through a set process of meditation on a certain passage in Scripture (or otherwise), it kind of just [i]comes[/i] to a person, infused by God? Would you say that's more like it?

Also, out of curiosity, how would say that this understanding of Christian perfection (the dark nights, etc) mix with, say, St. Ignatius of Loyola, who from my understanding, is huge on meditation.

And, as a last question, I wonder if someone could [i]describe[/i] meditation for me. I know, I know. That should be simple, but that may be part of my difficulty in understanding all of this. I'm not sure I've ever [i]done[/i] descriptive meditation before... at least not formally.

Thanks for any help!!
[/quote]



Are there two different Dark Nights? I've heard of only one, the Dark Night of the Soul. This post is interesting.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297966334' post='2213327']
Yeah! [i]Ze Darrk Night of ze Soul[/i]...

Transcription:

[i](...) One of the themes much developed by John was that of the purification of the soul: by means of created things, we can discover traces of the living God in this world. Faith, however, is the unique means by which we can come to know God as he is in himself. The demanding process of purification, at times active and at others passive, requires our determined effort, but it is God who is the real centre; all man can do is dispose himself and humble himself before the loving work of God in the soul. In this sense, John is for us a model of humble dedication and of faithful perseverance on the road to spiritual maturity.

[/i]We'll have to wait a bit for the rest of it I suppose.

Here's the[b][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110202_en.html"][b] full Audience about St. Teresa of Ávila[/b][/url][/b] only a few weeks ago. I also loved and took a lot from the one about [b][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110112_en.html"][b]St. Catherine of Genoa[/b][/url][/b] last month.
[/quote]



[i]"The demanding process of purification, at times active and at others passive, requires our determined effort, but it is God who is the real centre; all man can do is dispose himself and humble himself before the loving work of God in the soul."[/i]
[i]
[/i]
[i]I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church and spent time in the Baptist, Charismatic and Lutheran Churches, also a little bit in the Penecostal.[/i]
[i]Just a day or two ago I read something that really interested me. All the years I was growing up and for many, many years afterward I thought that we just did[/i]
[i]everything we knew to be right and it was God who made us grow. I think it was Father Raoul Plus I was reading and in his book he said that we are [/i]
[i]responsible for our own growth. This makes sense and certainly takes away a lot of the confusion I felt about spiritual growth. God leads us into all[/i]
[i]truth by His Holy Spirit but He can't do anything if we are not seeking Him. [/i]
[i]
[/i]
[i]
[/i]