Understanding The Dark Night Of The Senses

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1285896708' post='2177148']
I took a look at the link. It sounds like a wonderful book that I could understand.

How have you learned about all of these books and sites?
[/quote]


I'm old

[Sarah147]

lol


There are plenty of older people that are clueless. I take it you have known a lot of spiritual people and have visited many Religious stores?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1285897161' post='2177155']
lol


There are plenty of older people that are clueless. I take it you have known a lot of spiritual people and have visited many Religious stores?
[/quote]


One of the great things about phatmass is there is always someone who knows something about something here or who knows someone who does. What one person hasn't read or doesn't know, usually someone else has or does, and if we all share that info here, we all benefit. There are also a lot of threads on similar topics, so you might want to do a search on st john or dark night here or carmelites and I am sure that you find a lot more that has already been posted.

[kafka]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285895046' post='2177137']
Iain Matthews wrote a great book called The Impact of God that helps one to understand St John of the Cross better.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Impact-God-Soundings-Christian-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576"]http://www.amazon.com/Impact-God-Soundings-Christian-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576[/url]

He is one person that I truly respect for his understanding of Fr Juan
[/quote]
Yes! That is truly a fine book. Between this book and reading the originals one should be able to learn about Saint John's teaching quite well.

[corban711]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1285167959' post='2175293']
Right now I am studying the various stages of the spiritual life and Christian perfection. I've read St. Teresa of Avila and some St. John of the Cross as spiritual reading in the past (and actually, I guess T of A as part of study for a class, too), and I have to admit that sometimes they both made me go

Since reading an amazing book ([i]Christian Perfection and Contemplation According St Thomas and St John of the Cross[/i] by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange), I've been able to understand a little more those crazy/awesome Carmelite saints.

Anyways, not the point. The point is that there's a particular part of the Dark Night of the Senses that I don't understand... and that's the cessation of meditation. What does that mean? Obviously I understand that discursive meditation no longer occurs (as frequently? at all?), but I guess what I'm asking is the practical implications... Does that mean a soul no longer sits with Sacred Scripture? No longer receives insights? That would seem strange to me-- you look to the great mystics and they all have such a deep understanding of Sacred Scripture and have clearly... meditated? on it often... and surely not just prior to their progression in the spiritual life.

My only thought is that the [i]mode[/i] of receiving insights must change at this progression in the spiritual life. Rather than receiving insights through a set process of meditation on a certain passage in Scripture (or otherwise), it kind of just [i]comes[/i] to a person, infused by God? Would you say that's more like it?

Also, out of curiosity, how would say that this understanding of Christian perfection (the dark nights, etc) mix with, say, St. Ignatius of Loyola, who from my understanding, is huge on meditation.

And, as a last question, I wonder if someone could [i]describe[/i] meditation for me. I know, I know. That should be simple, but that may be part of my difficulty in understanding all of this. I'm not sure I've ever [i]done[/i] descriptive meditation before... at least not formally.

Thanks for any help!!
[/quote]

Great thread! Tough questions! As I am not fit to answer all of your questions in a complete way, I will try to speak to what I know. My old spiritual director (a priest/religious of the Oblates of the Virgin Mary...very Ignatian btw) used to insist that St. Teresa of Avila says that you always take something with you to prayer. Most especially in the beginning stages of the spiritual life and as you are moving into the stages where God begins giving infused prayer. Scripture especially. Although it is true that meditation will cease as Our Lord fills you more and more with infused prayer, very often it will take a simple phrase, story, or action found in the text to move your soul to deeper prayer. You bring Scripture or some other kind of prayer aid (rosary, a spiritual book, an image that you are drawn to, etc) with you. That would be your part so to speak. Reading slowly over the text, allowing the words to wash over you, learning to stay with a part that strikes you and not move forward to "get through" the text...etc. etc. That will be a great aid to disposing your soul to the prayer God wishes to give you. And when He stops giving it, you have the Scriptures there with you to meditate upon until He gives again.

You will of course still receive insights both in and out of prayer times. I remember reading in The Fire Within that when St. Teresa speaks of infused prayer, she says that not only is it something God gives to a soul properly disposed, but it is also transformative of the person receiving it. Because of your deeper union with God, you will understand things like Scripture all the better, because you will know Him better.

Now, to your question out of curiosity...about how the stages fit in with Ignatian prayer. My initial thoughts are that they are quite complimentary. A good friend of mine always likes to say that when St. Thomas Aquinas had a vision of God he stopped writing...but that is precisely when St. Ignatius started writing. His "spiritual exercises" were written to help guide souls to that same experience of God that he had. I think that St. Ignatius gives a very solid spiritual foundation, a training in Christian mediation that helps one become more disposed to God and develop a habit of deep prayer which is an important part in being ready for infused prayer. I think his exercises are a good tool to take one through the beginning "mansions" up to the point in which God takes over!

I have rambled on enough! I hope something in that mess of words is helpful! haha.

Edited October 7, 2010 by corban711

[corban711]

Oh yeah...and for those Carmelites...meditation is basically what we do in prayer to get to God...slowly reading over the Scriptures, focusing on a certain truth of the Faith to gain deeper understanding, using your imagination to put yourself in a passage of Scripture either as a participant in the scene or just watching it unfold (what do you see? hear? feel?) etc. Contemplation would be what God does in us. In infused prayer He will suspend your reasoning, thoughts, or imaginations to fill you with Himself and His loving presence.

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285892156' post='2177120']
Okay - I found him, Gerald G. May, MD - he is an interesting writer, a psychiatrist and a Christian. I thought he was a Catholic but I can't find anything to confirm this belief. I read his book on the dark night and found it very interesting.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]
This is a wonderful writer, he wrote a book on meditation which is as humorous as it is helpful. A sense of humor is a glorious thing. Especially for such sensitive topics.
Dr. May is also a teacher of teachers. I personally know a Dominican sister who went through his Shalem Institute in spiritual direction.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='sistersintigo' timestamp='1286729162' post='2178937']
This is a wonderful writer, he wrote a book on meditation which is as humorous as it is helpful. A sense of humor is a glorious thing. Especially for such sensitive topics.
Dr. May is also a teacher of teachers. I personally know a Dominican sister who went through his Shalem Institute in spiritual direction.
[/quote]

Yes, a very gifted writer. He WAS a teacher of teachers. He passed away in April 2005. Here are some tributes to him.
[url="http://www.sdiworld.org/tributes-in-memoriam-gerald-may.html"]http://www.sdiworld.org/tributes-in-memoriam-gerald-may.html[/url]

[kafka]

I think one of the highest forms of contemplative prayer (or meditation) is simply willing not to will anything except for God and everything that He is in Himself. The mind really isnt involved in any critical thinking other than serving the will by helping direct the will toward God. When one is engaged in this sort of prayer he should not will to receive any sort of insights or anything else except for God. God may infuse insights into the soul during this sort of prayer, but they most likely will not be triggered into the consciousness of the mind until a later time perhaps when reading Scripture or when one is engaged in critical thinking during the day in the midst of other activities, unless one is a true mystic experiencing genuine mystical experiences which in the grand scheme of human persons is very rare. But mystical insights are possible on occasion for simple people like us, but I think they come at other times when we are not engaged in this high form of prayer.

But the idea is to simply will a non-willing of all things except for God or simply will God and all that He is in himself without any idea in the mind of what this might be. It is impossible for the mind to know God as He is in Himself in this first life anyway. The highest form of prayer period is the beautific union and vision of God in the next life.

But in this first life one of the highest forms of prayer is a simple act of pure love primarily in the will and secondarily in the mind. Pure love doesnt want anything other than to give of oneself to the beloved God without receiving anything in return and is satisfied with this.

Edited October 11, 2010 by kafka

[MithLuin]

[b]sistersintigo[/b], you may wish to know that your long post earlier in this thread (about the retreat you went to) has attracted some attention.

[url=http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=109033]This poster[/url] apparently joined the forum for the sole purpose of taking issue with what you wrote.

I don't think a reply is necessary, but I thought you might want to be made aware of this.

Edited October 21, 2010 by MithLuin

[Micah]

Just ordered [i]The Dark Night of the Soul[/i]
[i]
[/i]
I have always had the lingering sensation that a certain amount of mental discord or temporal disconnect with your surroundings is not only beneficial but required in order to provoke a spiritual state of mind. This Psychiatrist seems to be proposing the same thing. Thanks for whoever posted it, nunsense I think? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]

[kafka]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1287694832' post='2181429']
[b]sistersintigo[/b], you may wish to know that your long post earlier in this thread (about the retreat you went to) has attracted some attention.

[url=http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=109033]This poster[/url] apparently joined the forum for the sole purpose of taking issue with what you wrote.

I don't think a reply is necessary, but I thought you might want to be made aware of this.
[/quote]

[Sarah147]

Wow! Deep thread, this is! I love reading it. Can you just imagine where God may take you?

[ExCorde]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1287877958' post='2181927']Wow! Deep thread, this is! I love reading it. Can you just imagine where God may take you?
[/quote]

One of the troubling things about reading these great mystics and teachers of the divine life, is precisely wondering too much about where God may lead you!

I knew quite a few of these references before, but to me, although the subject is fascinating, I've always felt like I shouldn't go into it too much because of two reasons. First, I didn't want to give away my experience, and start using other people's words before I was able to use my own. Secondly, I honestly realize that we're talking about great saints and Doctors, so in my spiritual and human mediocrity I don't suppose I'll really be getting what they're talking about a lot of the times.

As a perpetual beginner in the prayer life, I relate more to what kafka said, that meditation should be about connecting our desires and understandings with the fulfillment that comes from discerning and obeying God's will - which is often quite blurry, to me.

One thing that I would like to discuss would be: [b]how would the Desert Fathers and Early Church Fathers, especially those of the East, relate to this Western focus on the "rationalization" of the spiritual life?[/b] I mean, if meditation was never the focus, there wouldn't be any problem with "dark nights" at all... Mind you, I don't know much about it, but sometimes I've felt and have been told that there is more of a focus on the harmony of faith and reason in the East. But again, how much of this is true, when like holly.o quoted, the West has also produced insights like: [i]"The soul must forget about [understanding], and abandon itself into the arms of love, and His Majesty will teach it what to do next..."[/i] (St. Theresa of Avila)?

(also, this topic totally needed a bump )

[kafka]

a nice little talk Pope Benedict gave on Juan de la Cruz at the audience yesterday:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujpJy4NNvY8&feature=channel[/media]