Understanding The Dark Night Of The Senses

[TeresaBenedicta]

Right now I am studying the various stages of the spiritual life and Christian perfection. I've read St. Teresa of Avila and some St. John of the Cross as spiritual reading in the past (and actually, I guess T of A as part of study for a class, too), and I have to admit that sometimes they both made me go

Since reading an amazing book ([i]Christian Perfection and Contemplation According St Thomas and St John of the Cross[/i] by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange), I've been able to understand a little more those crazy/awesome Carmelite saints.

Anyways, not the point. The point is that there's a particular part of the Dark Night of the Senses that I don't understand... and that's the cessation of meditation. What does that mean? Obviously I understand that discursive meditation no longer occurs (as frequently? at all?), but I guess what I'm asking is the practical implications... Does that mean a soul no longer sits with Sacred Scripture? No longer receives insights? That would seem strange to me-- you look to the great mystics and they all have such a deep understanding of Sacred Scripture and have clearly... meditated? on it often... and surely not just prior to their progression in the spiritual life.

My only thought is that the [i]mode[/i] of receiving insights must change at this progression in the spiritual life. Rather than receiving insights through a set process of meditation on a certain passage in Scripture (or otherwise), it kind of just [i]comes[/i] to a person, infused by God? Would you say that's more like it?

Also, out of curiosity, how would say that this understanding of Christian perfection (the dark nights, etc) mix with, say, St. Ignatius of Loyola, who from my understanding, is huge on meditation.

And, as a last question, I wonder if someone could [i]describe[/i] meditation for me. I know, I know. That should be simple, but that may be part of my difficulty in understanding all of this. I'm not sure I've ever [i]done[/i] descriptive meditation before... at least not formally.

Thanks for any help!!

[TeresaBenedicta]

[sistersintigo]

Have you ever heard of an author named Bernadette Roberts?
I just returned from a retreat with her in Southern California, where she is a native. She is almost eighty years old.
She spent ten years in the Alhambra Carmel in her youth. One reason, of several, for leaving Carmel, was that she felt called to the vocation of motherhood, she wanted to raise children. It was when her children were nearly grown that she began to write and publish. Today she is a doting grandmother.
Mrs. Roberts is a contemplative and proud of it. Besides the Alhambra Carmel, a formative influence in her youth was a Carmelite priest, what some people jokingly call an "FBI" meaning "Foreign Born in Ireland", whom she met on the West Coast. She identifies him only as Father Columbanus. Now, HERE was a priest with staggering knowledge and insight into the Dark Night of the Soul [the name to which I am accustomed for some reason]. Mrs. Roberts has written about how God brought Father Columbanus into her life while she still lived at home with her parents and went to high school. She already had a daily schedule of intense prayer and religious devotion and meditation. Her parents thought that was quite enough, and from there, she could have transitioned seamlessly into marriage and motherhood -- her mother, in particular, thought all women belonged at home and hearth, and would have loved nothing more.
But Father Columbanus, referred to the future Mrs. Roberts by a mutual Catholic acquaintance, begged to differ. He became Mrs. Roberts' spiritual director, and was anxious to have her enter Carmel BEFORE the Dark Night of the Soul set in, so that she could endure the ordeal in the company of people who had a context and reference for what she was going through, and who had the spirituality, charism, theology, and so on to realize that she wasn't losing her mind....
today, although Mrs. Roberts is a fiercely orthodox Roman Catholic, who defends her Church with all she has, she is misunderstood by people, some of them in high places! Would you believe she had a shattering experience with Father Thomas Keating? The latter learned of her publications, and voiced -- for the record, in public -- his approval about her explicit accounts of contemplative meditative practice; then, when the two of them met at last, it became apparent that she and he had two totally different understandings of prayer and meditation and doctrine. Father Keating tried to impose his, er, whatever (point of view?) upon Bernadette Roberts; and she, the daughter of an attorney, fought back tooth and nail ; she has a fiery, peppery personality, nothing airy-fairy about the woman, and she stood up to Fr. Keating. And the latter, it seems, is ill-accustomed to people standing up to him! He criticized her bitterly, I was told, he said things that were really hurtful; finally, when he saw that Mrs. Roberts was not about to cave in, he just shut up completely and cut her dead. Not the sort of account I am used to hearing about the well-publicized Fr. Keating.
Mrs. Roberts has, as I say, a prickly personality, possibly because of having to fight for her place for so many years. She still adores children though, she is just not icky-sweet about it, and in the retreat she had so much to say about Christian mysticism that much of it sailed right over my head....but I would not have missed the retreat for anything.

Here is where you can find more information about her writings and her retreats.

[url="http://bernadettesfriends.blogspot.com"]Bernadette Roberts, contemplative[/url]

Edited September 24, 2010 by sistersintigo

[Sarah147]

[quote]
My only thought is that the [i]mode[/i] of receiving insights must change at this progression in the spiritual life. Rather than receiving insights through a set process of meditation on a certain passage in Scripture (or otherwise), it kind of just [i]comes[/i] to a person, infused by God? Would you say that's more like it?
[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head. As people grow deeper in the spiritual life, they can move onto contemplative prayer, and may not go back to meditation like before.

In the "Prayer Quests" video series by Fr. Dubay, he describes meditation wonderfully.

Edited September 25, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1285167959' post='2175293']
Right now I am studying the various stages of the spiritual life and Christian perfection. I've read St. Teresa of Avila and some St. John of the Cross as spiritual reading in the past (and actually, I guess T of A as part of study for a class, too), and I have to admit that sometimes they both made me go

Since reading an amazing book ([i]Christian Perfection and Contemplation According St Thomas and St John of the Cross[/i] by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange), I've been able to understand a little more those crazy/awesome Carmelite saints.

Anyways, not the point. The point is that there's a particular part of the Dark Night of the Senses that I don't understand... and that's the cessation of meditation. What does that mean? Obviously I understand that discursive meditation no longer occurs (as frequently? at all?), but I guess what I'm asking is the practical implications... Does that mean a soul no longer sits with Sacred Scripture? No longer receives insights? That would seem strange to me-- you look to the great mystics and they all have such a deep understanding of Sacred Scripture and have clearly... meditated? on it often... and surely not just prior to their progression in the spiritual life.

My only thought is that the [i]mode[/i] of receiving insights must change at this progression in the spiritual life. Rather than receiving insights through a set process of meditation on a certain passage in Scripture (or otherwise), it kind of just [i]comes[/i] to a person, infused by God? Would you say that's more like it?

Also, out of curiosity, how would say that this understanding of Christian perfection (the dark nights, etc) mix with, say, St. Ignatius of Loyola, who from my understanding, is huge on meditation.

And, as a last question, I wonder if someone could [i]describe[/i] meditation for me. I know, I know. That should be simple, but that may be part of my difficulty in understanding all of this. I'm not sure I've ever [i]done[/i] descriptive meditation before... at least not formally.

Thanks for any help!!
[/quote]


Just a question. Have you read St John's take on all of this, or just Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. Although he is great himself, GL may not be able to interpret in a way that works for you, and perhaps going back to the source (John) might help. Another one who explains it quite well is St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) in her book The Science of the Cross.

If you want to discuss this privately, I am happy to do so via PM or email. John saved my sanity.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1285373662' post='2175784']
I think you hit the nail on the head. As people grow deeper in the spiritual life, they can move onto contemplative prayer, and may not go back to meditation like before.

In the "Prayer Quests" video series by Fr. Dubay, he describes meditation wonderfully.
[/quote]

From my understanding, it's not necessarily that people [i]move onto contemplative prayer[/i] but that God draws them into it-- gifts them with it. And that it's not necessarily a "full-time" experience, but occurs when God gifts it.

[quote name='nunsense']
Just a question. Have you read St John's take on all of this, or just Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. Although he is great himself, GL may not be able to interpret in a way that works for you, and perhaps going back to the source (John) might help. Another one who explains it quite well is St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) in her book The Science of the Cross.[/quote]

I've read [i]The Dark Night of the Soul[/i] and then also both St. Teresa of Avila's books. So I'm definitely familiar with them. And Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange quotes extensively from both. I also studied St. Bernard of Clairvaux quite extensively for my senior project (his teachings are very similar to those of the great Carmelites).

To an extent, I do [i]understand[/i]. I get the whole picture. I understand what's going on inside of the soul during this ascent.

I think where I'm running into difficulty is relating it to my own experience. And I'm trying to be careful, because early on in my spiritual life, having read John of the Cross, I began to try and figure out "where" I was and I became obsessed, I guess you could say. I wasn't ready to read John of the Cross because I was so eager to progress, I kept trying to think myself "further along" than I really was. Luckily I had the sense to step away from it and focus not [i]on[/i] the relationship, but [i]be in[/i] the relationship.

That being said, I'm careful to guard against that now. But it is helpful to put all of this science of the mystical life into my own experience. I honestly don't "care" where I am right now, because I want only to follow God's will, to love His will, and to love Him. He's in charge of my progression in the spiritual life, and it is His grace that will draw me closer to Himself. So, in that sense, it's not particularly urgent or necessary for me to place myself somewhere along this path.

On the other hand, I do think there's some benefit to having an idea of where God has brought you. Knowledge of self, and also knowledge of what sort of trials to vaguely expect. And also so that you don't persist in something during prayer when God is trying to do something else with you (for example, ceasing meditation before you have been given the gift of contemplation... or trying to constantly return to meditation when God is trying to raise you up into contemplation).

I might PM you later this evening, nunsense, to talk a little more about some questions that would involve something more of my own prayer experience.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1285376965' post='2175804']
From my understanding, it's not necessarily that people [i]move onto contemplative prayer[/i] but that God draws them into it-- gifts them with it. And that it's not necessarily a "full-time" experience, but occurs when God gifts it.



I've read [i]The Dark Night of the Soul[/i] and then also both St. Teresa of Avila's books. So I'm definitely familiar with them. And Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange quotes extensively from both. I also studied St. Bernard of Clairvaux quite extensively for my senior project (his teachings are very similar to those of the great Carmelites).

To an extent, I do [i]understand[/i]. I get the whole picture. I understand what's going on inside of the soul during this ascent.

I think where I'm running into difficulty is relating it to my own experience. And I'm trying to be careful, because early on in my spiritual life, having read John of the Cross, I began to try and figure out "where" I was and I became obsessed, I guess you could say. I wasn't ready to read John of the Cross because I was so eager to progress, I kept trying to think myself "further along" than I really was. Luckily I had the sense to step away from it and focus not [i]on[/i] the relationship, but [i]be in[/i] the relationship.

That being said, I'm careful to guard against that now. But it is helpful to put all of this science of the mystical life into my own experience. I honestly don't "care" where I am right now, because I want only to follow God's will, to love His will, and to love Him. He's in charge of my progression in the spiritual life, and it is His grace that will draw me closer to Himself. So, in that sense, it's not particularly urgent or necessary for me to place myself somewhere along this path.

On the other hand, I do think there's some benefit to having an idea of where God has brought you. Knowledge of self, and also knowledge of what sort of trials to vaguely expect. And also so that you don't persist in something during prayer when God is trying to do something else with you (for example, ceasing meditation before you have been given the gift of contemplation... or trying to constantly return to meditation when God is trying to raise you up into contemplation).

I might PM you later this evening, nunsense, to talk a little more about some questions that would involve something more of my own prayer experience.
[/quote]


The Ascent of Mt Carmel is really a precursor to the Dark Night, if you can get through it. It deals with the dark night of the senses as differentiated from the dark night of the spirit. It talks about the active and passive purgations. He gets sidetracked later on but it is still well worth reading for the setup of everything that comes after.

Judging our own spiritual state is almost impossible, but sometimes being able to read a description or explanation that resonates with our own experiences can help us to move on, especially if we are feeling unsure or doubtful. I didn't read John to determine where I was, so much as to comfort me that I wasn't insane. Then I discovered that everything he said made sense to me.

A good SD should be able to help but as John said, there is nothing worse than a bad SD, and there are so many of them out there!

Personally, I don't see any reason to cease meditation if it is occuring naturally. Once contemplation begins, there is no need for meditation, but as you point out, God takes one into that state. Perhaps in the stage where meditation is becoming difficult, not because of dryness or lack of consolations, but because a deeper interior movement is happening, then one could try letting go of the meditation to see where God is leading.

If there were a 1, 2, 3 of prayer, then we would be denying God's part in it. Despite some commonalities of prayer, the saints were all individuals in their relationship with God, and that is ultimately the whole point of prayer.

Edited September 25, 2010 by nunsense

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285378595' post='2175808']
The Ascent of Mt Carmel is really a precursor to the Dark Night, if you can get through it. It deals with the dark night of the senses as differentiated from the dark night of the spirit. It talks about the active and passive purgations. He gets sidetracked later on but it is still well worth reading for the setup of everything that comes after.

Judging our own spiritual state is almost impossible, but sometimes being able to read a description or explanation that resonates with our own experiences can help us to move on, especially if we are feeling unsure or doubtful. I didn't read John to determine where I was, so much as to comfort me that I wasn't insane. Then I discovered that everything he said made sense to me.

A good SD should be able to help but as John said, there is nothing worse than a bad SD, and there are so many of them out there!

Personally, I don't see any reason to cease meditation if it is occuring naturally. Once contemplation begins, there is no need for meditation, but as you point out, God takes one into that state. Perhaps in the stage where meditation is becoming difficult, not because of dryness or lack of consolations, but because a deeper interior movement is happening, then one could try letting go of the meditation to see where God is leading.

If there were a 1, 2, 3 of prayer, then we would be denying God's part in it. Despite some commonalities of prayer, the saints were all individuals in their relationship with God, and that is ultimately the whole point of prayer.
[/quote]

Well, there's a lot I could say... but not necessarily something that I'd put out here. I think where I'm having difficulty is with meditation-- it's cessation and, in a sense, what it is. For one reason or another, I don't think I've ever practiced discursive meditation. At least not frequently.

As for judging our own spiritual state-- I agree. It's almost impossible. And St. Teresa says that a soul can, in a sense, be in a few different mansions at one time. Like I said, I'm honestly not too concerned about it. In trying to understand all of what is being said in these writers, I'm trying to put some of it into my own experience. Was what I experienced contemplation? Or was it something like the quietists?

[holly.o]

I don't have much to add, but I just came across this quote by St. Teresa of Avila:

[quote]The soul must forget about [understanding], and abandon itself into the arms of love, and His Majesty will teach it what to do next...[/quote]

[Sarah147]

How does one differentiate between:

Clinical depression
Dark night of the soul
Dark night of the senses

?

[AccountDeleted]

Two things that might help.. one is an article and the other is a video clip. There is also a really good book about this by a Catholic psychiatrist but I need to dig out the details. I read it a long tiem ago.
[url="http://blog.beliefnet.com/beyondblue/2008/09/video-the-dark-night-and-depre.html"]
[/url]
[url="http://blog.beliefnet.com/beyondblue/2009/05/the-dark-night-and-clinical-de.html"]http://blog.beliefnet.com/beyondblue/2009/05/the-dark-night-and-clinical-de.html[/url]


[url="http://blog.beliefnet.com/beyondblue/2008/09/video-the-dark-night-and-depre.html"]http://blog.beliefnet.com/beyondblue/2008/09/video-the-dark-night-and-depre.html[/url]

[AccountDeleted]

Okay - I found him, Gerald G. May, MD - he is an interesting writer, a psychiatrist and a Christian. I thought he was a Catholic but I can't find anything to confirm this belief. I read his book on the dark night and found it very interesting.

[b][color="#00283c"][quote] Biography
[/color][/b][font="Arial"][size="2"]Dr. [b][color="#204878"]Gerald May[/color][/b] is a psychiatrist and author. After several years as a military psychiatrist—including temporary duty in Viet Nam at Cam Ranh Bay—10and 17 years in private practice, Dr. May left his practice in 1988 to become a spiritual counselor. Today he is on the staff of the Shalem Institute in Washington, D.C., an ecumenical organization supporting contemplative spirituality. Dr. May is the author of seven books on psychology and spirituality, including [b]Addiction and Grace[/b], [b]Care of Mind/Care of Spirit[/b], and his newest book, [b]The Awakened Heart[/b]. [Biographical information is correct as of the broadcast date noted above.][/size][/font]

Bio of May [url="http://www.csec.org/csec/sermon/may_3513.htm"]http://www.csec.org/...on/may_3513.htm[/url]

Books
The Dark Night of the Soul: A Psychiatrist Explores the Connection Between Darkness and Spiritual Growth
[url="http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/7882032/used/The%20Dark%20Night%20of%20the%20Soul:%20A%20Psychiatrist%20Explores%20the%20Connection%20Between%20Darkness%20and%20Spiritual%20Growth"]http://www.alibris.c...ritual%20Growth[/url]


Simply Sane: The Spirituality of Mental Health
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Sane-Spirituality-Mental-Health/dp/0824513665"]http://www.amazon.co...h/dp/0824513665[/url] [/quote]
================================================

I also liked this info about the difference between dark night and depression - I've bolded the bits from the book.

[quote]
Three years ago, Keith (my former college prof) mailed me a copy of his book, "[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809141930/beliefnet"][color="#023d89"]Carmelite Prayer: A Tradition for the 21st Century[/color][/url]." I keep it beside my computer as a reminder of the wisdom and strength in those Carmelite saints that I love: St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and St. Therese of Lisieux. The eighth chapter of this compilation of essays by prominent Carmelite scholars is by Carmelite Kevin Culligan, O.C.D. (the Carmelite order, not obsessive-compulsive disorder), and is entitled "The Dark Night and Depression."

Here are some excerpts from his chapter that help to distinguish the dark night of the spirit, which requires prayer, and clinical depression, which demands medical treatment.

[i][b]I can usually tell whether persons are depressed or in the dark night by attending closely to my own interior reactions as these persons describe their inner experience. As a disorder of mood or affect, depression communicates across personal relationships. Depressed persons typically look depressed, sound depressed, and make you depressed. After listening to depressed persons describe their suffering, I myself begin to feel helpless and hopeless, as though the dejected mood of persons with depression is contagious. I also frequently feel deep pity for the "profound rejection and hatred of the self" that characterize persons who are truly depressed.[/b][/i]

Read more: [url="http://blog.beliefnet.com/beyondblue/2009/05/the-dark-night-and-clinical-de.html#ixzz113rbAVnX"]http://blog.beliefne...l#ixzz113rbAVnX[/url] [/quote]


Hope this helps.

[Sarah147]

Thank you tremendously!

I never thought there was that much info out there about the matter!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1285894748' post='2177133']
Thank you tremendously!

I never thought there was that much info out there about the matter!
[/quote]


Iain Matthews wrote a great book called The Impact of God that helps one to understand St John of the Cross better.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Impact-God-Soundings-Christian-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576"]http://www.amazon.com/Impact-God-Soundings-Christian-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576[/url]

He is one person that I truly respect for his understanding of Fr Juan

[Sarah147]

I took a look at the link. It sounds like a wonderful book that I could understand.

How have you learned about all of these books and sites?