Sodom And Gomorrah

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1285836761' post='2176896']
Depends on the subject. For instance, I would defer to you in tracksuit lore.[/quote]

And you have a problem with tracksuits and Hip Hop? You're rather a pompous person.

[quote]
I don't think any of those words mean what you think they mean.[/quote]


[quote]
This is not unique to Catholicism. It's a common human reaction.[/quote]

No, with minor exceptions it is. The Boy Scouts of America comes close. This scandal in the Catholic Church will - if one appreciates history - go up there with the Inquisition and forbidden books.


[quote]
That's wonderful. You're a saint among men. [/quote]

If you read my profile or things I have admitted about myself you would see I've never suggested anything close to that. However, it is quite ironic that this greatest of sinner on one of three crosses, this woman breaking perfume, has likely led more (even if as little as two) persons back to the Church than many millions of Catholics in the United States, walking their lukewarm lives, being polled not even knowing the Catholic Church teaching on the Eucharist.

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285839426' post='2176897']
'Chi Zhuzi' - I have no doubt that God can use you to evangelize in a certain type of environment, as witness your claims for making converts, and your friends who do not object to the way you express yourself.[/quote]

Okay... hold up. My online Mexican friend, she is about my age, with some college education, bilingual, runs her own business in Mexico, she's Catholic, and has traveled more of the United States than I have - or any American I know for that matter.

She is perhaps on a certain level what one might term a feminist. Perhaps. She certainly is affectionate in the ways some Latin American women are noted for.

Her and I come from two entirely different worlds. She also knows I'm an unemployed, broke, gringo. But while I never asked her, I get the impression she appreciates and likes the fact I kept it "100" with her about that. I've joked with her a number of times asking her to move up her to Milwaukee so I can drive her car. It might seem inappropriate to an American when she responds back in lightheartedness and uses the word baby and says, "Baby, you move to Mexico you can drive my car anytime you want."

But however wrong that might seem to an American that is not objective fact. Not logician, not biologist, not sociologist would chalk that up to objective fact.

Now, as for the two people I helped lead (unintentionally) back to the Church, they were American women, and can hardly be described as my friends. However, there are a lot of Catholics in America that are taught about Catholicism primarily from anti-Catholic propaganda. My mother in many ways is one of these, and she is a practicing Catholic unlike me. When I present Catholic history or the Catholic view point it's like something some people are hearing for the first time. It's not because I'm so smart, or so better, it's because I can speak with a passion and have a knowledge base to draw from that all to many Catholics seem to be without.

I only look for [u]one[/u] person to hit a message with on the internet. If it hits 2 or 50 all the better. But I only aim for one. So, when I'm in a another thread and I'm typing info about the Vatican operating an economy comparable to a middle-size university in the United States, and cities like Chicago operating economies far larger than the Vatican and some nation-states, I'm not saying it for my own benefit. I'm not stating these things to be perceived as smart. I'm aiming for that one, faceless individual who never heard any of this before. For all I know, that one person may change the course of history. I don't do this for you (plural you). I'm not even a practicing Catholic. But by chance the entire story of Jesus is true - I do it for him.

I'm cognizant of a bigger fight, a larger battle field. In the Marine Corps there is a belief - somewhat mystical one might say - that one man, one rifle, one bullet can change the entire course of a battle, and that battle the entire course of a war. It is no surprise then that so many hardcore atheists can often find themselves more angered at me than they are by a million practicing Catholics in Chicago or New York City. In fact many of those atheist have practicing Catholics on their side.

[quote]But perhaps you need to consider that not all venues may be suitable for your particular form of expression. You say that what you write is not pornographic because this is subjective, so maybe you should consider that at phatmass, the subjective opinion is that discussing such topics as sodomy in any detail are pornographic in nature. What might be acceptable 'on the streets' is just not acceptable in the family home. We are a phamily here and while we want to be welcoming and charitable, your posts border on offensive almost all of the time. Please take a look at whether or not you have wiped the dog poo off your shoes before you enter the house and keep it clean here. Thank you.
[/quote]

Every website is a "family" - or better stated a cult of personality. The important question is whether practicing Catholics on or off this board will threaten to leave the Democratic party in light of Democrats using their influence to protect the Qu'ran from a public burning in contrast to their public support of the "Sensation" exhibition and the "Piss Christ"? Whether or not you all like me is neither here nor there. I'm a peon. You can stand up and be counted for your King and Queen in heaven.

I already know I'm not voting for any Democrat again.

But like I said... my heart is with Brazil, the people and culture, so, what American Catholics do is not my biggest concern. I would even reconcile myself with Evangelical Protestantism becoming the dominant religion in Brazil. Lord knows it might help in some ways anyways.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1286260465' post='2177928']
And you have a problem with tracksuits and Hip Hop? You're rather a pompous person.
[/quote]
I said I would defer to you in the matter of tracksuits. I don't believe I mentioned hip or hop.

[quote]No, with minor exceptions it is. The Boy Scouts of America comes close. [/quote]
And the government, school systems, families...

if you say "with minor exception, that means you agree with me. But then you mention BSA as coming close. I don't think you organized your thoughts before responding.

[quote]This scandal in the Catholic Church will - if one appreciates history - go up there with the Inquisition and forbidden books.[/quote]
If one appreciates history, one refers to "The inquisitions," since there were many. Do you get your Church history scandals from a pamphlet? If so, check the third leaf, because you failed to mention the Borgias.

[quote]If you read my profile or things I have admitted about myself you would see I've never suggested anything close to that. However, it is quite ironic that this greatest of sinner on one of three crosses, this woman breaking perfume, has likely led more (even if as little as two) persons back to the Church than many millions of Catholics in the United States, walking their lukewarm lives, being polled not even knowing the Catholic Church teaching on the Eucharist.
[/quote]
If you preface your bragging with some self-flaggellation, it will fool some of the people.

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1286280800' post='2177936']
I said I would defer to you in the matter of tracksuits. I don't believe I mentioned hip or hop.[/quote]

The attire is not uncommon in Hip Hop culture. I also grew up break dancing and wearing fat shoe laces. What's not common in the Hip Hop world are pompous people attempting to speak like sophisticated aristocrats.

[quote]
And the government, school systems, families...[/quote]

[quote]
if you say "with minor exception, that means you agree with me. But then you mention BSA as coming close. I don't think you organized your thoughts before responding.[/quote]

There has not been enough study done on the public school system to come up with reliable statistics on how many students a single teacher may "molest." What's his name... in his book about anti-Catholicism (I'll have to google to find his name), I believe stated the New York City public school system moved accused and guilty teachers around from one school to the next, similar what the Catholic Church had done. But so far, unless other evidence comes out, this does not seem to have been a nation-wide practice. The Catholic Church conducted this on a global scale. Where one parent might molest one or all of his children, a single Priest in the Catholic Church could molest hundreds. This was largely due to the fact the Church quietly moved the Priest from one parish to the next.

And no... by stating "with some exceptions" I'm not agreeing with you, as you were implying what the Catholic Church did was a [u]universal[/u] practice. A universal practice would be eating or consuming water and even maybe sex and religion. However, if I criticized Aztec cannibalism, especially in its scope, and someone counters, "No, cannibalism is a human problem," and I respond, "No it isn't, excepted the rare cultures," I'm not agreeing with your two-value system of logic (e.g., either A or B, either right or wrong, either black or white, either everyone does it or no one does it).

Example of binary perspective or two-value logic:

The notion of "mestizo" and "mulatto" may not exist in American binary perspective, and suggesting someone is "Indian" or white can only seems to be the objective truth, but in Mexico (a nation apparently predominately Indian by U.S. standards) it's understood to be equally true that there exists another option between "Indian" and "white," and that is mestizo. Blurring things even further brunette whites, mestizos, East Asian, mulattos, and Fulani West Africans are all [i]morenos [/i]in Mexico. All "truth" does not always come down to black and white, good or bad.

What's interesting is I maintain the same position on the Church scandal on this board as I do on any other board, and that being, the media treated the Catholic Church unfairly and the Bishops of the Church handled the sexual abuse problems poorly and disgracefully. Yet, those that are anti-Catholic view my stance as defense for the Catholic Church, and some members on this board view it as an attack on the Catholic Church.

I recall hearing on TV a long time ago, about a study that was conducted, in which Israelis and Palestinians received the same media report, yet both sides were convinced the media report was in support of their enemy and biased against them.

The Church acted disgracefully. And the evidence is in the fact the secular world and non-Catholics had to coerce the hierarchy of the Catholic Church to reform its procedures.

[quote]
If one appreciates history, one refers to "The inquisitions," since there were many. Do you get your Church history scandals from a pamphlet? If so, check the third leaf, because you failed to mention the Borgias.[/quote]

The Inquisition is enough.

[quote]
If you preface your bragging with some self-flaggellation, it will fool some of the people.
[/quote]

I did no bragging. I simply pointed out a [u]fact[/u].

For example, it's a fact one of my favorite non-fiction authors, Peter Robb greatly dislikes the Catholic Church. That's a fact. I've read a number of his wonderfully written books and he likes to take shots at the Church. But he's like Michelangelo with words - but that might be an opinion and not fact. Certainly many people regard him as someone who draws well with the English language. I suspect his descriptions of two particular transsexuals in his books [i]A Midnight in Sicily [/i]and [i]A Death in Brazil [/i]would be regarded as utterly pornographic by some on this site.

Fine. Be that as it may, one ought be careful about suggesting a writer reporting known, frequent, human sexual behaviors has a twisted mind, and ought be careful about inferring what universal object truth is related to the human body and the scope of the human sexual identity.

After all, today's person with "conservative values" is likely yesterdays "liberal." Take for example the dress attire and unveiled head of the woman in the photo that first accused me of having a twisted mind (apparently unfamiliar with the fictional tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, which rates more "twisted" than mine, not even I could come up with the literary idea of a gang of men attempting to rape two male angels). She would be ranked up there with immoral women among Catholics of the 19th century. And every Catholic that eats with a fork and table knife was written off as damned to hell, centuries ago, by more than one Catholic and Protestant preacher. I think even famous Catholic author Dante places one person in one of his levels of hell because the person was guilty of eating with a fork. For everyone knows, the objective and eternal truth is, every good, moral person and Catholic eats with their hands!

One of the published papers I have to read for my philosophy of biology class, would be regarded as pornographic on here too, when it describes certain behaviors (sexual) of female rats, that help prevent them from eating its young. To many in the world, it is not pornographic but merely philosophical literature providing an example in one particular branch of the natural sciences.

[ardillacid]

If there were a tax placed on the words inquisition and galileo, there would be a lot of bankrupt trolls.

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1286404864' post='2178229']
What's his name... in his book about anti-Catholicism (I'll have to google to find his name), I believe stated the New York City public school system moved accused and guilty teachers around from one school to the next, similar what the Catholic Church had done.
[/quote]

Here's the author. His book I was speaking about is [i]The New Anti-Catholicism[/i].

His book [i]The Lost History of Christianity[/i] is very good too.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Jenkins"]Author Philip Jenkins[/url]

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='notardillacid' timestamp='1286405483' post='2178231']
If there were a tax placed on the words inquisition and galileo, there would be a lot of bankrupt trolls.
[/quote]

The Inquisition was not the heinous affair non-Catholics often make it out to be. It has been described as "a popular movement" by some historians and probably justifiably so. Henry Kamen (a ethnic Jewish man, and historian, for what worth that may carry in terms of racial politics) states that probably [b]5,000 [/b]people were put to death, over the course of hundreds of years, in supposedly the most notorious Inquisition of all, the Spanish Inquisition.

To put that in context I offer this: over several decades the government Iran has put to death, through capital punishment, roughly 5,000 homosexual men.

So, the Spanish Inquisition does not seem to have been as blood lusting as the popular received image gives.

Likewise, Thomas Merton noted in one of his books, that Stalin had more people put to death in one town, in one day, then all number of people that were put to death in several hundred years of Inquisition in Latin America.

Do you take issue with what I just stated?

Well take issue with this: it was a disgrace that the Catholic Church was involved in what resulted in many Catholics being burned at the stake, for what we in evolved democratic societies today view as issues of person conscience and freedoms all related to autonomy.

The Galileo affair was a disgrace. And in my opinion largely more so because Galileo was a [u]devote Catholic[/u] that wanted [u]to save[/u] the Catholic Church from making a grand mistake, he theorized, would haunt it for centuries in historical literature. He was right.

By the way, I'm a supporter of the what we term "the Crusades," and by Crusades I mean even the Reconquest of Spain and the Battle of Vienna.

You take issue with what I have just said?

Everything I've just stated I've stated to an avowed agnostic who writes me off as a [b]blind follower of the Catholic Church. [/b]He regards me as the most hardcore defender of Catholicism on the board we argue on. The young woman that denotes herself as "Catholic" who sides with atheists, uses birth control, and cares not a lick about the image of Catholicism, I can tell, thinks I defend the Catholic Church too much.

What do you think Jesus thinks, since you obviously know his heart and how he views my service to him and his mother? As a good Catholic that would allow your King and Queen's Church to fall into blunder, you must be certain he views me as a troll?

Have you ever pondered where your mouth would be, if you were living during the era of the Spanish Inquisition or the trial of Galileo?

People have their views, but their views may not necessarily always be objective truth. I was struck with humor on a board were a all the moderators are atheists and one atheist that is homosexual. People frequently posted pictures, such as women in bikini's, but I once posted an image of one of the famous Italian cathedrals with a naked cherub I believe. LOL. The guy was offended and warned me to stop posting pornographic images on a board with children. I told him it was a painting in a Catholic Church where Catholics bring their children to worship. He didn't care. Mind you he never had any problem with other members posting photos of women in two piece bikinis. LOL.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1286404864' post='2178229']
The attire is not uncommon in Hip Hop culture. I also grew up break dancing and wearing fat shoe laces. What's not common in the Hip Hop world are pompous people attempting to speak like sophisticated aristocrats.[/quote]
What about unsophisticated aristocrats?

I grew up clog dancing.





[quote]There has not been enough study done on the public school system to come up with reliable statistics ...

And no... by stating "with some exceptions" I'm not agreeing with you, as you were implying what the Catholic Church did was a [u]universal[/u] practice. A universal practice would be eating or consuming water and even maybe sex and religion. However, if I criticized Aztec cannibalism, especially in its scope, and someone counters, "No, cannibalism is a human problem," and I respond, "No it isn't, excepted the rare cultures," I'm not agreeing with your two-value system of logic (e.g., either A or B, either right or wrong, either black or white, either everyone does it or no one does it).[/quote]

Statistics are irrelevant. The success of predators relies on the fact that it's human nature to conceal the crime, to not deal with it and to give the predator another chance. Our legal system still does that.

Oh, we're not obeying grammar rules; I get it, now.

[quote]
The notion of "mestizo" and "mulatto" may not exist in American binary perspective, [/quote]
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[quote]What's interesting is I maintain the same position on the Church scandal on this board as I do on any other board, and that being, the media treated the Catholic Church unfairly and the Bishops of the Church handled the sexual abuse problems poorly and disgracefully. Yet, those that are anti-Catholic view my stance as defense for the Catholic Church, and some members on this board view it as an attack on the Catholic Church.[/quote]
I think it's interesting that you don't understand what I'm saying because you're overly sensitive.

[quote]The Church acted disgracefully. And the evidence is in the fact the secular world and non-Catholics had to coerce the hierarchy of the Catholic Church to reform its procedures. [/quote]
Could you highlight the changes in Canon Law for us?



[quote]The Inquisition is enough.[/quote]
Sure, if you want to be inaccurate.


[quote]I did no bragging. I simply pointed out a [u]fact[/u].

For example, it's a fact one of my favorite non-fiction authors, Peter Robb greatly dislikes the Catholic Church. That's a fact. [/quote]

Okay
It's a fact that he's one of your favorites or that he greatly dislikes the Catholic Church?



[quote]Fine. Be that as it may, one ought be careful about suggesting a writer reporting known, frequent, human sexual behaviors has a twisted mind, and ought be careful about inferring what universal object truth is related to the human body and the scope of the human sexual identity. [/quote]
I choose to live on the edge. That guy is a crappy writer and his trannies are poorly written pornography. I'm a daredevil.

[quote]...And every Catholic that eats with a fork and table knife was written off as damned to hell, centuries ago, by more than one Catholic and Protestant preacher. I think even famous Catholic author Dante places one person in one of his levels of hell because the person was guilty of eating with a fork. For everyone knows, the objective and eternal truth is, every good, moral person and Catholic eats with their hands![/quote]
Hang on while I google that.

[quote]One of the published papers I have to read for my philosophy of biology class, would be regarded as pornographic on here too, when it describes certain behaviors (sexual) of female rats, that help prevent them from eating its young. To many in the world, it is not pornographic but merely philosophical literature providing an example in one particular branch of the natural sciences.
[/quote]
I don't know why you hang with such prudes. If I were you, I would get my best piece of cardboard and run down to the park.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vtIXFxfnfU[/media]

[Chi Zhuzi]

Winchester,

I first came on this site and gave it accolade. The reason is is that I felt it could be a useful tool in converting, or at least drawing many urban and people raised in Hip Hop culture to Catholicism. I still think the man that created this site did a great job. I'm confident God looks with favor on him and hopefully he will continue to guide him and his web board in a right direction most useful to what God thinks may serve him.

And mind you, I'm sure God guides many people, from the Protestant to the person practicing Santeria. I'm not God, I let God be God.

In my opinion the Catholic Church has mounting forces rising against it - critically - and I've never understood why Catholics would quibble over things of rather minute issue. I understand arguments, I understand disagreement and passion for certain things in or outside of Catholicism. I don't really understand the [i]hatred [/i]Catholics have for one another over tiny issues that mean little to nothing ultimately. But people hate. That's one of the things humans have in common. Eastern Orthodox and Catholics slaughtered each other over hatreds.

My main purpose for joining this board was to prick the egos of Catholics and motivate them to take a stand against the Democrats.

Assuming practicing Catholic is contingent on the notion of a person striving to model themselves off of the saints, I see little of that in you. You present yourself with little humility on this site and it appears you use this site to boost your own ego. I don't think I have read a single post of yours anywhere on this website that did not use condescending sarcasm. The majority of young men in my neighborhoods (from 18 to their 40's) have felonies and few have any formal education past high school. My neighborhood has a population of roughly 40,000 people, and my neighborhood certainly isn't the worse story when it comes to that. The vast majority of these young men would not want to join or participate on this website if they read your smart remarks, staring down your nose, at the culture they came from.

Your attitude reminds me of that akin to that Franciscan friar conducting missionary work that set a Pueblo Indian on fire.




But like I said... I have greater interests in Brazil. I'll express my opinion on what I know of the hood being a bona fide member that has paid the price in blood and drug addiction in the hood. If that falls on deaf ears within the nation of Catholicism then so be it. Brazil is a rising nation and has a diversity and culture that appeals deeply to me. And I'm certain God rests happily on the beaches of Rio de Janeiro or in the literature of its famous authors or in Brasilia with President Lula, a former favelado, shoe shine boy, factory worker, union leader, and if I remember correctly, a man that has only 4th grade education. Only in Brazil! In what other nation on earth could a man of that background rise to become the democratically elected President of his nation? It's Lula I look to see God in and its you I see the person known as Satan in.

Pace.

(feel free to respond back with more pompous aristocratic sarcasm)

[Winchester]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1286477104' post='2178384']

Your attitude reminds me of that akin to that Franciscan friar conducting missionary work that set a Pueblo Indian on fire.


[/quote]
You think not putting up with your crazy the essence of cow is akin to setting Indians on fire?


Also, Breakin' is one of the greatest movies of all time. For you to denigrate it in this setting is truly the least excusable of all your actions thus far.



Pip, pip, tea, crumpets, cricket, tosh, posh. (That's aristocrat talk.)

Edited October 7, 2010 by Winchester

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1286477104' post='2178384']


My main purpose for joining this board was to prick the egos of Catholics and motivate them to take a stand against the Democrats.

[/quote]
I find it interesting that you came to this site to knock people down a notch, but are offended when they try to do the same to you.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1286485736' post='2178401']
I find it interesting that you came to this site to knock people down a notch, but are offended when they try to do the same to you.
[/quote]
I'm offended by your use of the word "try."

[MIKolbe]

well you have been slippin as of late....i mean.. look at your avatar.

[Winchester]

What do you have against Chas?

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1286485533' post='2178399']
You think not putting up with your crazy the essence of cow is akin to setting Indians on fire?[/quote]

Yes, you're attitude is like that man.

You are in fact like me: you are not a very good person.

But don't worry, there are many of raised Catholics or even converts to Catholicism that are not good people.

My former professor that has left a deep impression on me, the light skin Haitian that gave up his Catholicism of youth (and I sat through his class listening to no small amounts of criticisms of Christianity and Catholicism) to become a Vodou Priest, now he's a good man. And that's not to say he never employed sarcasm. He did, and very well I think at times, which left me laughing on many occasions. He frequently lectures in Brazil too, and is internationally respected in his field of scholarship. If I can ever one day match his welcome and charity during office hours visits, I'll be all the better for it.

[quote]
Also, Breakin' is one of the greatest movies of all time. For you to denigrate it in this setting is truly the least excusable of all your actions thus far.[/quote]

Unlike you, I used to break dance, and like any soldier on a battle field, I have left blood, heart, and soul on the concretes of "the hood." Your sideline watching, your tourism through the hood, your enjoyment of popular films are not "what's up." I'm "what's up." And that ain't bragging. That's fact. That's "100." That's what we term in the hood, "Real talk." Jennifer Lopez is what's up. Tupac Shakur in all his anger, tattoes, foul mouth, and scarred body from bullet wounds, may he rest in peace, is what's up. And if one is Christian they'll say Jesus is what's up. If you're Catholic, if you came up like me, if you wore a track suit like me, if you're ignorant enough to get hit in the head like me, if you're willing to "stand on this," and look another two or three men in their eyes, then you'll say the Virgin Mary is what's up.

Now that's what's up. Not your vehicular tourism through the hood passing crackheads like me.

What's also "what's up" are people are over this earth that come from different backgrounds and worlds than I do. My story or history is no greater than theirs. The black Protestant preacher impressed with what he regards as my admirable loyalty to the Catholic Church. When he talks to me one on one, man to man, and invites me to join his Protestant nation and his particular church, and to mold me, and give shape to me as he had the former drug addicted black male that introduced me to him. That cat was keeping it 100. And he's what's up. The two white Protestants in a small rural Wisconsin town of around 5,000, one of them a former farmer, the other a former Army Ranger, the charity and openness in those two men, that one would be hard pressed to find in Milwaukee or amongst gritty, sinful, Catholics like myself, that's what's up.


[quote]
Pip, pip, tea, crumpets, cricket, tosh, posh. (That's aristocrat talk.)
[/quote]

No, you're snobbish mouth is, which probably never risked it's chance in a boxing ring, to give you an up close chance to learn more about yourself.