Mafia, Criminals, And Gangs

[Chi Zhuzi]

At the risk of getting my head bitten off.... does anyone ever ponder if [u]certain[/u] (not all) aspects of Mafia, criminals, or gangs can be learned from or even admired?

Not to suggest biker Priests riding Harley's are involved in the culture of 1%ers or involved in crime. But they have adapted a certain mode of transportation and rode into a culture of weekend bikers if not full time biker clubs.

After reading about Milwaukee's former mafia boss having been a college graduate and pianist I was further encouraged to enroll in college. It also appears that Milwaukee's first mafia boss was a medical doctor. He carried the title doctor, so, I'm hazarding a guess it was not a result of having a Ph.D., but maybe I'm wrong.

Milwaukee's former mob boss, Frank Balisteiri obtained a bachelor degree during an era when a lot of American men didn't finish high school. My German-American grandfather (Catholic) for example, never even finished grade school. Back then you didn't need those things to work in a factory or in the trades and support a stay at home wife, have a mortgage, and raise 10 or 12 kids.

Also, do you think these mob bosses with college degrees (most mob boss in the U.S. never went to college) are guilty of greater grave sin because they have college degrees?



[i]
[/i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States"]Educational Attainment in the United States[/url]


[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Educational_attainment.jpg/561px-Educational_attainment.jpg[/img]

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[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Educational_attainment_copy.jpg/250px-Educational_attainment_copy.jpg[/img]

[Chi Zhuzi]

Peter Robb talks about this former mob boss of Sicily and his U.S. Marine cousin who was New York mafioso before he enlisted in the Corps, running Sicily's underworld together during the U.S. occupation, in his awesome book, [i]Midnight in Sicily, on Art, Food, and La Cosa Nostra.

[/i]1. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Navarra"]My link[/url]

[quote][b]Michele Navarra[/b] (January 5, 1905 - August 2, 1958) was a powerful member of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily"]Sicilian[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia"]Mafia[/url]. He was a qualified [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician"]physician[/url] and headed the Mafia Family from the town of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corleone"]Corleone[/url]. He was known as 'u patri nostru (our father).[/quote]
[quote]Navarra was born in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corleone"]Corleone[/url] ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily"]Sicily[/url]) in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class"]middle class[/url] family; his father was a small landowner, a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_surveyor"]land surveyor[/url] and teacher at the local agrarian school. He studied at the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Palermo"]University of Palermo[/url], first engineering and later medicine, getting his degree in 1929. He served in the Italian army until 1942, reaching the rank of captain. He became the boss of Corleone in 1943, succeeding Calogero Lo Bue.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Navarra#cite_note-hess63-0"][1][/url][/sup]

Navarra was the old fashioned type of Mafia boss: genteel, well dressed, but ferocious. He did not murder people himself, but delegated the work.[/quote]


Frank B. He's discussed in more detail in the originally published book, [i]Donnie Brasco, [/i]written by former undercover FBI agent Joe Pistone, and made famous in the movie in which Johnny Depp portrayed him (Joe Pistone).

2. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Balistrieri"]My link[/url]

[quote]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d8/FrankBalistrieri.jpg/250px-FrankBalistrieri.jpg[/img]


[b]Frank P. Balistrieri[/b] (May 27, 1918 – February 7, 1993), also known as "Mr. Big", "Frankie Bal", "Mr. Slick", and "Mad Bomber", was a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee"]Milwaukee[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia"]Mafia[/url] boss who was a central figure in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino"]casino[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance_and_tax_evasion"]skimming[/url] during the 1980s.

Balistrieri was college educated and attended law school for six months. As a young man, he started working for the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_crime_family"]Milwaukee crime family[/url], which owed allegiance to the powerful [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Outfit"]Chicago Outfit[/url] criminal organization in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago"]Chicago[/url]. Balistrieri soon built a reputation for arrogance, cruelty and ruthlessness.

[/quote]

[Chi Zhuzi]

In the 1920's very few men in the United States let alone in Sicily ever graduated college, and then went on to medical school to become doctors!

3. [url="http://www.americanmafia.com/Cities/Milwaukee.html"]My link[/url]

[quote] The first known crime boss for the Milwaukee La Cosa Nostra Family was Vito Guardalabene. His criminal organization is thought to have existed as a branch of the Chicago Outfit. Guardalabene would rule as crime lord from 1918 until his death on February 6, 1921 from natural causes. Vito Guardalabene's son, Peter, would pick up the reigns and rule until 1927. [/quote]
[quote]On December 27, 1961 Alioto attended a civic testimony honoring [u][b]Dr. Vito Guardalabene[/b].[/u] The social event, honoring the son and grandson of the previously mentioned Guardalabenes, would also serve as the official induction of Balistrieri as the new boss of the Milwaukee LCN Family. [/quote]

So, I'm thinking one can perhaps learn lessons in swagger, dress, or even educational attainment from mobsters or other criminal figures.


In Roberts Saviano book, [i]Gommorah, [/i]he states his father (not a mobster, and I believe his father was or is a medical doctor), used to tell him, [i]a real man [/i]has a college degree and owns a gun. He told him a guy with a college degree but no gun is a "S____ with a degree," and a guy with a gun but no college degree is a "S____ with a gun."

He was writing on the Comorra in Naples and not the Sicilian mafia. The comorra from the description he give of them, are roughly comparable to American "super-gangs" like the Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, and perhaps MS-13.

I was intrigued by this medical doctor's view of manhood as it pertains to personal responsibility, and its applicability to security in physical and financial terms.

4. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomorrah_%28book%29"]My link[/url]

[quote]The book describes the clandestine particulars of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business"]business[/url] of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camorra"]Camorra[/url], a powerful [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan"]Neapolitan[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia"]mafia[/url]-like organization. In this book Saviano employs [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose"]prose[/url] and news-reporting style to narrate the story of the Camorra, exposing its territory and business connections.

Since 2006, following the publication of the book, Saviano has been threatened by several Neapolitan "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capo_di_tutti_capi"]godfathers[/url]". The Italian Minister of the Interior has granted him a permanent [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_escort"]police escort[/url], but he's often attacked by politicians of the Berlusconi's government and also his escort has been questioned.

As of December 2008, the book has sold almost 4 million copies worldwide.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomorrah_%28book%29#cite_note-0"][1][/url][/sup]

[/quote]

[ardillacid]

Is there a debate in this?

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='notardillacid' timestamp='1284872091' post='2174474']
Is there a debate in this?
[/quote]

Eh... I guess not. Maybe I put it in the wrong forum.

With that said, in many areas of the Americas, various U.S. cities included, certain areas have taken on the pressures of low-intensity warfare. The well-to-do are not immune from this in Latin America. In the United States the well-to-do are largely protected from it (as of now at least) and live in essentially an entirely different country.

Naples in Italy is pretty bad too. Probably not as bad as Detroit but bad nonetheless. Unfortunately, and it comes as a major embarrassment to me, in general, Protestant dominated countries tend be safer nations with much less corruption. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I get the impression, that Protestants are better at being practical than us Catholics or Catholic reared.

For example, why would Brazil leave huge swaths of squatter camps, built up with stolen or non-stolen services (water, electricity etc.), without permanent police stations and a sizable police presence, but rather, spend years professing the Catholic moral rhetoric of "how people should behave." There was a similar mindset - or so it appears to me - in how many of the Bishops and the Holy See handled pedophile Priests. Last I read this case unfolding in Belgium is going to rock the Church to its core. Some of the Priest apparently were quite physically abusive and depraved.

When police and the Church can't [i]protect you [/i]perhaps mobsters and gang members offer some lessons in how to develop some security for yourself? I don't know, I have a lot of questions about things. I remember seeing some documentary on the Latin Kings in New York. Some Priest seemed to be trying to convert that gang faction under King Tone. It struck me as a bit flaccid and naive. Just my opinion, but I think the Priest would have been better off trying to convert them by encouraging members to enter college - like the mob bosses I posted - join a boxing gym, and begin defending those weaker than them. Some gang members are pretty tough people, so, if you can help them mold that character trait for good or noble uses, it's more productive than pontificating about how they should never fight blah, blah, blah.

In the end it will be those barbarians that will defend and save the church. It won't be the Mexican, Spanish, or Italian military (which combined couldn't defeat the U.K. or U.S.) and I doubt it will be any Catholic in academia. At least not in the hour when swords are drawn.

[Chi Zhuzi]

Or let me put it like this, I'll hazard a guess, that these guys won't be frightened of any jihad suicide bomber, even if the day came that every other American was. [url="http://www.atimetoget.com/2009/02/tougher-than-me-ms-13-18th.html"]My link[/url]

[img]http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/ATTG/2422191455_d2830237e9_o.jpg[/img]

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[img]http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/ATTG/2316387189_3ec0863445_o.jpg[/img]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284885022' post='2174495']
Or let me put it like this, I'll hazard a guess, that these guys won't be frightened of any jihad suicide bomber, even if the day came that every other American was. [url="http://www.atimetoget.com/2009/02/tougher-than-me-ms-13-18th.html"]My link[/url]

[img]http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/ATTG/2422191455_d2830237e9_o.jpg[/img]

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[img]http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/ATTG/2316387189_3ec0863445_o.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I wrote an essay a few months ago dealing with this topic. I posted the essay in a new thread, if you care to read it (I figured it would be easier to post the essay than to try to restate it here):

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=108572

Edited September 19, 2010 by Era Might

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284884209' post='2174491']
For example, why would Brazil leave huge swaths of squatter camps, built up with stolen or non-stolen services (water, electricity etc.), without permanent police stations and a sizable police presence, but rather, spend years professing the Catholic moral rhetoric of "how people should behave."
[/quote]

What is your definition of "non-stolen" State-subsidized water, electricity, etc?

~Sternhauser

Edited September 19, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Chi Zhuzi]

Era! awesome! I'll read it. I clicked on that link. I see your essay was published!

I need to log off for a bit. I'll read it when I get back on. Thanks.

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1284905060' post='2174533']
What is your definition of "non-stolen" State-subsidized water, electricity, etc?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Yeah, Stern.

[Norseman82]

Interesting title that caught my eye, since I live in a traditional "mafia" neighborhood of Chicago (Chicago-Elmwood Park border) and organize our parish's annual motorcycle blessing.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what this thread is really about?? It seems to be going in multiple directions (and I may need to read through it a few more times for it to sink in). Are you trying to imply that the criminal organizations are more effective in imposing law and order and ready to protect Christians than the law enforcement entities that we have, and the moral implications thereof?

Also, about the college educated mafia - the "mafia" consider what they do a "business", and these college-educated members are considered to have "talents" to be put to use, so the only [b]extra[/b] moral obligations that would separate them from the non-college educated would be if they broke any professional codes in what they do (like Mafia lawyers doing illegal things).

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284847802' post='2174348']
Not to suggest biker Priests riding Harley's are involved in the culture of 1%ers or involved in crime. But they have adapted a certain mode of transportation and rode into a culture of weekend bikers if not full time biker clubs.
[/quote]

I'm on a Catholic Motorcycle Riders forum, and I do know that there are some deacons who ride. Also, our archdiocesan newspaper printed an interview with a priest who also rides, so I don't see a problem with "biker clergy":

http://www.catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2009/1206/5min.aspx

Edited September 19, 2010 by Norseman82

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1284925347' post='2174648']
Interesting title that caught my eye, since I live in a traditional "mafia" neighborhood of Chicago (Chicago-Elmwood Park border) and organize our parish's annual motorcycle blessing.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what this thread is really about?? It seems to be going in multiple directions (and I may need to read through it a few more times for it to sink in). Are you trying to imply that the criminal organizations are more effective in imposing law and order and ready to protect Christians than the law enforcement entities that we have, and the moral implications thereof?

Also, about the college educated mafia - the "mafia" consider what they do a "business", and these college-educated members are considered to have "talents" to be put to use, so the only [b]extra[/b] moral obligations that would separate them from the non-college educated would be if they broke any professional codes in what they do (like Mafia lawyers doing illegal things).



I'm on a Catholic Motorcycle Riders forum, and I do know that there are some deacons who ride. Also, our archdiocesan newspaper printed an interview with a priest who also rides, so I don't see a problem with "biker clergy":

[url="http://www.catholicn.../1206/5min."]http://www.catholicn...n.../1206/5min. [/url] aspx
[/quote]

Norse, there is no coherence to this thread or my original post really. I was just throwing out some things I ponder, and food for thought, as well as asking if anyone else ever thought about similar things. Remember I come from the era of gangsta rap, Larry Hoover, the GD's and VL's. In Chicago and a number of Midwestern cities I would say the GD's and VL's as organizations (now loosely since their leaders have been purged by RICO) have become at least as well entrenched as the Catholic and Baptist Churches. They have given a whole value system to the inner city. The GD's in fact are said to have their own "bible."

In my environment, mobsters and especially Larry Hoover are spoken about like some Americans might speak about Thomas Jefferson. I have utterly no use for Thomas Jefferson or even the Catholic Church frequent preaching on condoms. Frankly, no one I know does. The Irish voting gangs and how the former "Boss of Chicago" Daley climbed to power through his Irish voting gang and the former Democratic machine of Chicago, seems to make more sense to me how the real world works. I'm not saying it's right. And so long as I pray to St. Bernadette I'm not even suggesting that's the right route to take.

But there are gaps (distances) between a mafia lawyer and an unemployed crack head, a guy that sticks up small stores, or a semi-skilled laborer who falls and fears the law but has had no motivation to expend greater energy to improve the station of his life.

Have you ever read former Chicago mafia lawyer Robert Cooley's book [i]When Corruption was King[/i]? Good book.

What makes me better than these two gentleman in this article? [url="https://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/currentIssue/full_feature_story.asp?NewMessageID=18817"]Daughter of the Don[/url]

Nothing does. They were lawyers and they take care of their respective families.

One thing I admire about those gang members in the pictures with their bodies and faces tattooed, is the level of commitment. I think Era in his article spoke of a "radical commitment" and he was on the mark. I once considered getting a Star of David (formed from bullets) put on my chest. But I was cautious to do it and eventually opted not to. Why? Because responsibility comes with that. The GD's use the "six point star" as their symbol. Taking my shirt off at a basketball court could potentially result in my death or me being paralyzed (as gun violence victims in the inner city often are). That kind of commitment takes courage - not only for reconciliation with death as Era point out, but with reconcilation with possibly being confined to a wheelchair for the rest of your life.

[mommas_boy]

I used to teach in inner-city schools in Chicago (and had met Norseman a couple of times when I was up there; we were members of the same young adult group).

Anyway, what I admired about gangs in the schools that I taught in was that they were very important sources of fraternity in some kids' lives. I felt that if you took out the illegal activity, the drugs and the violence, these gangs were a good thing for those reasons. I think that many of the aspects that initially attract young kids to gangs can be copied and implemented in productive ways. I think that this is where a great many community centers got their start, including the YMCA.