Carmelite Nuns

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1285105305' post='2175161']
Good point.

And while I like their progressive habit changes, I MUCH prefer the Carmelite cloaks to the cucullas with the Sleeves that Ate Cleveland that they use for Mass and other formal worship. Whenever they need to turn the page in their prayerbooks you can see all the professed sisters flapping their arms so their hands can emerge out of the sleeves.

I do see the value of a habit, and I LOVED how you described wearing a habit as being embraced by God, but this particular design element seems to be an odd choice.



So clearly they all have their pluses and minuses.
[/quote]

I used to love the long sleeves because they covered the hands, but it was a pain to have to roll them up twice before eating or working etc. and sometimes if one wasn't careful they could get caught on things like a door handle! When I was measured for the habit, the Habit Sister made sure that the sleeves went down over the tips of my fingers At my new community, the sleeves are down to the wrists instead of over the fingers, and they are not as wide, so they are much more practical. The clothes of past eras are romantically beautiful, and I am certainly a romantic at heart. But I also understand why a lot of things have gone in some communities, like the long, wide sleeves and the voluminous skirts that they used to roll up to sit on, and the layers of toques and veils. At least Carmelites didn't have the large starched wings and bonnets of some other orders, or some of them might still be wearing them today!

And I do love the cream mantle (cloak). It isn't worn a lot, mainly for Mass and Sundays and formal occasions but it seems to complete the habit.

Iggy, your point about the community being small is a good one too. With 21 as the maximum nuns permitted, the average number is probably around 14-15 these days. Every nun knows not only every other sister's name, but also her 'age' in the community because many things are done according to age such as place in choir, processions and seating in Refectory. Not all communities adhere strictly to this in daily life, but it is still common knowledge who entered when and who came before or after each sister. Even if everyone wore the same color veil, they would know who was solemnly professed etc, so the black veil is not a means of identification, it is a symbol of final consecration. They really do consider it their 'wedding ring'.

[carmelite15]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285119074' post='2175205']
I used to love the long sleeves because they covered the hands, but it was a pain to have to roll them up twice before eating or working etc. and sometimes if one wasn't careful they could get caught on things like a door handle! When I was measured for the habit, the Habit Sister made sure that the sleeves went down over the tips of my fingers At my new community, the sleeves are down to the wrists instead of over the fingers, and they are not as wide, so they are much more practical. The clothes of past eras are romantically beautiful, and I am certainly a romantic at heart. But I also understand why a lot of things have gone in some communities, like the long, wide sleeves and the voluminous skirts that they used to roll up to sit on, and the layers of toques and veils. At least Carmelites didn't have the large starched wings and bonnets of some other orders, or some of them might still be wearing them today!

And I do love the cream mantle (cloak). It isn't worn a lot, mainly for Mass and Sundays and formal occasions but it seems to complete the habit.

Iggy, your point about the community being small is a good one too. With 21 as the maximum nuns permitted, the average number is probably around 14-15 these days. Every nun knows not only every other sister's name, but also her 'age' in the community because many things are done according to age such as place in choir, processions and seating in Refectory. Not all communities adhere strictly to this in daily life, but it is still common knowledge who entered when and who came before or after each sister. Even if everyone wore the same color veil, they would know who was solemnly professed etc, so the black veil is not a means of identification, it is a symbol of final consecration. They really do consider it their 'wedding ring'.
[/quote]

I think the Carmel in Brooklyn has the long sleeves to.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1285102457' post='2175140']
Carmelite, Dominican, Franciscan whichever we are all still brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the same family so I dont think its hijacking to talk about our own flesh and blood. Like in any family we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we fill up what is lacking in the other to make a whole. *GROUPHUG*

My two cents on veils from someone whos primary head covering looks like this and in the winter this although I wouldnt mind either of these as well A veil doesnt make or break a nun or sister, it covers her head but its what in her heart and her faithfulness to God and her vocation that count. To whom much is given much is expected so at their particular judgment those who were given a religious vocation (the same goes for any vocation) will be asked by God what they did with what they were given. I see a veil and think of the huge responsibility that comes with it because those who are chosen by God to wear it cant coast by on the greatness of their saintly predecessors, they are asked to be even greater than those who went before! I forget who said that either Teresa of Avila or Bl Elizabeth but it really is mind boggling to think about when one considers all the epic saints of any Order. Those called to religious life now are not to be another Rose, or Catherine, or Therese, or Clare but EVEN GREATER! Yikes! That makes for a heavy veil IMO!
[/quote]

Wonderful post Vee... it expresses the holy obligation those of us who have been called have before God and before others. For our life is a silent prophetic witness calling us to hang like Jesus on the other side of the cross and by our silence point the way to the kingdom to others. A habit is nothing more than an exterior sign of that commitment. It is a sacramental not sacrament and so is of lesser importance. We need to focus on Jesus and not get caught up into external. Yes they are beautiful and i love wearing my habit but it does not define who i am. Even naked i am still a religious and Carmelite and by virtue of my vows have a great responsibility given to me by holy mother church. To hold on to anything except Jesus and to be conformed into his image and likeness drawing others to him is to remain ignorant of the crux of our holy vocation. It is nice to like habits veils and the externals of religious life but who cares if the veil is French or Spanish? I am sure that God doesn't.

What makes a Carmelite is our desire and ability to disposess our selves of all things including those which are inherently good so that we my hold on to the ultimate good which is God. We must be careful not to make exteriors a possession. Nada Nada Nada save Jesus. The Habit does not define the religious and we have to make sure that we do not make idols out of the externals.

I would be just as happy dressed in sackcloth or any old thing i was given as if i had the most beautiful habit; for my vocation as a Carmelite is not measured by what i an wearing but rather how free i am of all possesions both exterior and interior so that I may be free interiorly to give myself in silence and solitude and an unceasing prayer, offering myself Like Jesus to the father for the salvation of others. My life is to be a holocaust, another humanity where in God may renew His mystery.

Externals are very important and help us to live the reality of our holy vocation but if their importance is disordered they may very well become a stumbling block.

Even the inordinate desire to possess Carmel, negates what Carmel really is. Nada Nada Nada... dispossession of all even Carmel if God so deems is a part of that of that journey. For any possession we grasp on too will hinder our growth in our holy vocation. Carmel by its very nature supports no self seekers even on the subconscious level. To grasp onto Carmel is to lose the essence of our vocation. Dispossession for the sake of possession of God. I must renounce everything even my very self in order to enter into that Unitive life of God. The true Carmelite goes beyond the external trappings so as to live her life with Christ in God. and then disappear into the very heart of the solitude of God. If we are not free of everything, including our desire for Carmel, we will never be empty enough for God to fill us with himself. And ultimately God will spurn us from that which is our deepest desire for we do not seek Him alone. God is a jealous God who will strip us of all our idols.

Only open hands willing to surrender all to God, grasping at nothing can possess God fully. We must be severed from our desires and even our very selves if we are to be true Carmelites. And then we can enter into the silence of God for there will be nothing distracting us from the one thing necessary.

If we wish to clothe ourselves in anything ,let us cloth ourselves in deep humility and obedience in love, then the Father looking on us will see the image of his only begotten son. who was humble and obedeint unto death and then he will draw us closer to himself in a loving paternal embrace.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1285158568' post='2175274']
Wonderful post Vee... it expresses the holy obligation those of us who have been called have before God and before others. For our life is a silent prophetic witness calling us to hang like Jesus on the other side of the cross and by our silence point the way to the kingdom to others. A habit is nothing more than an exterior sign of that commitment. It is a sacramental not sacrament and so is of lesser importance. We need to focus on Jesus and not get caught up into external. Yes they are beautiful and i love wearing my habit but it does not define who i am. Even naked i am still a religious and Carmelite and by virtue of my vows have a great responsibility given to me by holy mother church. To hold on to anything except Jesus and to be conformed into his image and likeness drawing others to him is to remain ignorant of the crux of our holy vocation. It is nice to like habits veils and the externals of religious life but who cares if the veil is French or Spanish? I am sure that God doesn't.

What makes a Carmelite is our desire and ability to disposess our selves of all things including those which are inherently good so that we my hold on to the ultimate good which is God. We must be careful not to make exteriors a possession. Nada Nada Nada save Jesus. The Habit does not define the religious and we have to make sure that we do not make idols out of the externals.

I would be just as happy dressed in sackcloth or any old thing i was given as if i had the most beautiful habit; for my vocation as a Carmelite is not measured by what i an wearing but rather how free i am of all possesions both exterior and interior so that I may be free interiorly to give myself in silence and solitude and an unceasing prayer, offering myself Like Jesus to the father for the salvation of others. My life is to be a holocaust, another humanity where in God may renew His mystery.

Externals are very important and help us to live the reality of our holy vocation but if their importance is disordered they may very well become a stumbling block.

Even the inordinate desire to possess Carmel, negates what Carmel really is. Nada Nada Nada... dispossession of all even Carmel if God so deems is a part of that of that journey. For any possession we grasp on too will hinder our growth in our holy vocation. Carmel by its very nature supports no self seekers even on the subconscious level. To grasp onto Carmel is to lose the essence of our vocation. Dispossession for the sake of possession of God. I must renounce everything even my very self in order to enter into that Unitive life of God. The true Carmelite goes beyond the external trappings so as to live her life with Christ in God. and then disappear into the very heart of the solitude of God. If we are not free of everything, including our desire for Carmel, we will never be empty enough for God to fill us with himself. And ultimately God will spurn us from that which is our deepest desire for we do not seek Him alone. God is a jealous God who will strip us of all our idols.

Only open hands willing to surrender all to God, grasping at nothing can possess God fully. We must be severed from our desires and even our very selves if we are to be true Carmelites. And then we can enter into the silence of God for there will be nothing distracting us from the one thing necessary.

If we wish to clothe ourselves in anything ,let us cloth ourselves in deep humility and obedience in love, then the Father looking on us will see the image of his only begotten son. who was humble and obedeint unto death and then he will draw us closer to himself in a loving paternal embrace.
[/quote]


A very interesting understanding of the Carmelite life IT. Perhaps we see things a little differently in some areas, but your sincerity and love for Our Lord is obvious, so I won't respond to something that might end up in a debate. The important thing is that we all love Jesus

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1285158568' post='2175274']
Wonderful post Vee... it expresses the holy obligation those of us who have been called have before God and before others. For our life is a silent prophetic witness calling us to hang like Jesus on the other side of the cross and by our silence point the way to the kingdom to others. A habit is nothing more than an exterior sign of that commitment. It is a sacramental not sacrament and so is of lesser importance. We need to focus on Jesus and not get caught up into external. Yes they are beautiful and i love wearing my habit but it does not define who i am. Even naked i am still a religious and Carmelite and by virtue of my vows have a great responsibility given to me by holy mother church. To hold on to anything except Jesus and to be conformed into his image and likeness drawing others to him is to remain ignorant of the crux of our holy vocation. It is nice to like habits veils and the externals of religious life but who cares if the veil is French or Spanish? I am sure that God doesn't.

What makes a Carmelite is our desire and ability to disposess our selves of all things including those which are inherently good so that we my hold on to the ultimate good which is God. We must be careful not to make exteriors a possession. Nada Nada Nada save Jesus. The Habit does not define the religious and we have to make sure that we do not make idols out of the externals.

I would be just as happy dressed in sackcloth or any old thing i was given as if i had the most beautiful habit; for my vocation as a Carmelite is not measured by what i an wearing but rather how free i am of all possesions both exterior and interior so that I may be free interiorly to give myself in silence and solitude and an unceasing prayer, offering myself Like Jesus to the father for the salvation of others. My life is to be a holocaust, another humanity where in God may renew His mystery.

Externals are very important and help us to live the reality of our holy vocation but if their importance is disordered they may very well become a stumbling block.

Even the inordinate desire to possess Carmel, negates what Carmel really is. Nada Nada Nada... dispossession of all even Carmel if God so deems is a part of that of that journey. For any possession we grasp on too will hinder our growth in our holy vocation. Carmel by its very nature supports no self seekers even on the subconscious level. To grasp onto Carmel is to lose the essence of our vocation. Dispossession for the sake of possession of God. I must renounce everything even my very self in order to enter into that Unitive life of God. The true Carmelite goes beyond the external trappings so as to live her life with Christ in God. and then disappear into the very heart of the solitude of God. If we are not free of everything, including our desire for Carmel, we will never be empty enough for God to fill us with himself. And ultimately God will spurn us from that which is our deepest desire for we do not seek Him alone. God is a jealous God who will strip us of all our idols.

Only open hands willing to surrender all to God, grasping at nothing can possess God fully. We must be severed from our desires and even our very selves if we are to be true Carmelites. And then we can enter into the silence of God for there will be nothing distracting us from the one thing necessary.

If we wish to clothe ourselves in anything ,let us cloth ourselves in deep humility and obedience in love, then the Father looking on us will see the image of his only begotten son. who was humble and obedeint unto death and then he will draw us closer to himself in a loving paternal embrace.
[/quote]

Wow .. thank you! You bring up a ton of great things to consider I like especially what you say about being detached even from Carmel itself .. and all the externals.. only being attached to Jesus and His will. I have been trying to work on this. If He wants me as a Poor Clare instead, for instance, I want to be indifferent to that.

It's fun to come on a forum like this every once and a while and talk on a kind of more superficial level about things like veils, etc .. .. ..

But yeah (or yes! rather) .. it's important to keep in mind the reality of what Carmel is. Thank you!

Edited September 22, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285162986' post='2175284']
A very interesting understanding of the Carmelite life IT. Perhaps we see things a little differently in some areas, but your sincerity and love for Our Lord is obvious, so I won't respond to something that might end up in a debate. The important thing is that we all love Jesus
[/quote]

Sister: there is nothing to debate for each carmelite is different. each led on a unique path and each path reflects a different attribute of the divine presence in our lives.
The beautiful thing is the different array of flowers planted in the garden of Carmel that is why we each h choose a title after our name that reflects the particular way in which we go to God. What i Love about the Carmelite rule is that it does not dictate exactly how each is to go to God but rather allows a holy freedom to develop our personal prayer life within the context of community. So please do not hesitate to share your thoughts! I for one would love to hear what you have to say

Edited September 22, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[vee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285162986' post='2175284']
A very interesting understanding of the Carmelite life IT. Perhaps we see things a little differently in some areas, but your sincerity and love for Our Lord is obvious, so I won't respond to something that might end up in a debate. The important thing is that we all love Jesus
[/quote]


[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1285179397' post='2175326']
. So please do not hesitate to share your thoughts! I for one would love to hear what you have to say
[/quote]

I dont care what either of you have to say!!!

[vee]

Furthermore if I ruled the world, which lucky for some people I dont, this would be Nunsense and Indwelling Trinity

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/555042364_beda4e821c.jpg?v=0[/img]

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1285184629' post='2175333']
Furthermore if I ruled the world, which lucky for some people I dont, this would be Nunsense and Indwelling Trinity

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/555042364_beda4e821c.jpg?v=0[/img]
[/quote]

[vee]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' timestamp='1285186904' post='2175338']

[/quote]

You can be co ruler! Id definitely need the help with those two! You can stay a Dominican and preach to them as they work! Hmmm actually a job with pitchforks might not be such a good idea.... Im putting them on sewing duty.

[img]http://www.gloria.tv/thumbnail/2010-01/media-48526-2.jpg[/img]

[AccountDeleted]

Duelling pitchforks? You are too funny vee.

IT and I just disagree on a few issues or perhaps that is too strong of a word - it might just be that we approach things from different angles.

This is all good though because God made us individuals. IT and I both love Jesus and His Church so the rest is all just dialogue. I don't believe that St Louis and St Thomas always agreed on everything when they sat at table together and certainly St Teresa and St John differed in some of their ideas, and maybe Clare and Francis or Scholastica and Benedict debated too, but that's stimulating. They all cooperated on everything that really mattered.

So if the saints can hold different opinions, so can we simple folk

And IT, I disagree, there IS something to debate about, but I'm not going to do it - I'm practicing mortififcation of the senses today!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285286846' post='2175604']
Duelling pitchforks? You are too funny vee.

IT and I just disagree on a few issues or perhaps that is too strong of a word - it might just be that we approach things from different angles.

This is all good though because God made us individuals. IT and I both love Jesus and His Church so the rest is all just dialogue. I don't believe that St Louis and St Thomas always agreed on everything when they sat at table together and certainly St Teresa and St John differed in some of their ideas, and maybe Clare and Francis or Scholastica and Benedict debated too, but that's stimulating. They all cooperated on everything that really mattered.

So if the saints can hold different opinions, so can we simple folk

And IT, I disagree, there IS something to debate about, but I'm not going to do it - I'm practicing mortififcation of the senses today!
[/quote]

Laughing...well I gave up my pitchfork long ago... it wasn't worth the effort ..I rather love than fight anyone...

Edited September 24, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284669436' post='2173876']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkg_TXb7c_k[/media][/quote]

*prayers* for them after another earthquake today .. I hope they got through safely like before ..

[Chiquitunga]

Probably no one remembers the conversation we had here an entire year ago about sewing the day veils to the toque But I learned how it is in at least one Spanish Carmel, so I'm posting (not that any of this is majorly important or anything :j)

At the beginning of the week each nun is given two clean toques. She sews this to the day veil with a few loose/temporary stitches in her cell, twice a week (and removes the stitches for the toques to be washed again) She doesn't create the ruffled look in this way - which I believe is simply for practical reasons to fit around the forehead - it's already this way on the veil (which is created by sewing, not elastic as I thought at one time) She just fastens them (the toque and day veil) together for a few days. They use a pin on the top of their head to keep the outer veil (Communion or great veil) on though, like for Mass or visiting people in the parlor.

[img]http://img.webme.com/pic/c/carmelitasecija/ellaella.jpg[/img]

Sr. Teresa of Jesus at the Ecija Carmel