Carmelite Nuns

[tnavarro61]

the great veils are interesting. are there still communities who still use such veils? what communities?

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284897667' post='2174509']
Cool pics! Im very impressed by Celine who managed to own a camera in the early days of cameras AND somehow get it into Carmel, and who had the patience to take pics on giant glass negatives! To Celine as a a photog In the book I have about St Teresa of the Andes it talks about how this pic came to be because remember Teresa made her final vows on her deathbed, so how can she be in this pic as a fully professed nun?

[img]http://www.decorcarmeli.com/images/TeresssaAndesStanding.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kilmacudcarmel.ie/images/andes1.jpg[/img]

In her Carmel's case before entrance the aspirant, I guess she would be, would go to a photo studio and be dressed in the full habit for one photo, and in regular clothes for another. The pic above of her in civvies was taken at the same time. The family would be able to keep these and that was it for pics forever, at least according to that one book. I found that interesting and thought Id share
[/quote]

again, this is very interesting!! thanks for sharing this one.

i have a couple of questions in my mind: why do extern dress differently those times? how do they live (in those times)?

Edited September 19, 2010 by tnavarro61

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284893063' post='2174501']
Funny you should say that because St Therese was in a lot of photos with her Carmelite sisters and she died in 1897. These nuns founded the Carmel in 1935 so I am not sure what is so mind blowing about them being in photos. I have lots of photos of the early days of this Carmel - they were put together for their 75th anniversary while I was there and given to me on a CD.


Here is a photo of the foundresses leaving Sydney by ship for Perth in 1935. You can see the extern in the center - with the strange headgear! I am posting two versions of this because in one you can see the nuns better and in the other the whole scene is easier to see.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Shipwindows1935.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Manoora18May35sharper.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

What is mind blowing to me is not the pics but pics outside or inside posing with religious of another community as none were allowed inside the enclosure and the nuns were only allowed out for medical emergencies. We were never seen without the great veil in such cases....I am speaking of my time in Brooklyn Carmel in which we followed the pre vatican II constitutions as they did not accept the declarations and with good reason in my opinion. I was never a fan of the declarations. Sorry i was not clear

[sonofbernard]

I know some French and Spanish Carmel, actually most of the carmel I visited using unveils, the only different I noticed is how they used their toque...

[sonofbernard]

sorry I mean using underveils...

Edited September 19, 2010 by sonofbernard

[carmelite15]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284878806' post='2174487']
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]




Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..



Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D
[/quote]


Oh so the Carmel in Brooklyn has the Spanish veils now?

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284931515' post='2174682']
Oh so the Carmel in Brooklyn has the Spanish veils now?
[/quote]

Yes, the new Carmel in Brooklyn does .. like these!

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lCjeEOJTLoo/R_VYErN_qoI/AAAAAAAAAb8/KpbIsYsfDig/s320/OCD+Monjas+%281%29.jpg[/img]


[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284884311' post='2174492']The Spanish veil was pinned in the front and on the sides where i was but i am sure each Carmel does it differently. I never cared for the Spanish look as it looked like you were wearing a football helmet LOL. [/quote]
Ha! That is true .. it seriously does look a bit like without another veil on top .. Still I've gotten used to it somehow .. maybe from watching too much of the St. Teresa of Avila/&Andes movies!

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284884311' post='2174492']
Thank you for setting me straight about Brooklyn's refoundation. Buffalo is an awesome Carmel. Buffalo was founded from the mexican Carmels and so would have the Spanish veil whereas originally Brooklyn was i think the seventh or ninth Carmel founded in the US. It was founded from Port Tobacco Carmel which later became Baltimore Carmel. The original sisters who came to the US were from the Carmel in Antwerp which came from the French Carmels. The Matthews sisters ( The original Founding Carmelites) still have decendants living in Port Tobacco. Port Tobacco was refounded in the 1970's. One of our hermits, then an OCD, was part of that refounding community.

Laughing and so here is all you never wanted to know about Carmel in the United States.
[/quote]

No, thank you! I love learning about all of this! Seriously, expect a PM from me one of these days with even more questions, lol (no worries though .. i won't ask too much .. prayer comes first of course! ) It's great to have a Carmelite veteran here!

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284884311' post='2174492']
Laughing.. Yes that is a picture of the great veil usually only worn in the parlour or when the the enclosure gate had to be opened for some reason. When workmen would come to the monastery or a priest had to enter the enclosure to give the sacraments a bell would be rung warning the sisters to to keep to their cells and out of sight so usually outside of the parlour we did not wear the great veil. At time of Holy communion when the communion grate would open we would pull down our communion veil so our eyes were hidden... most do not do this anymore.[/quote]

Interesting .. thanks for sharing again! So then there are two different outerveils .. the great veil and the Communion veil? Thanks! I had heard of a parlour veil, but hadn't heard of the name great veil. I guess that's what that is.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[carmelite15]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1285036660' post='2174989']
Yes, the new Carmel in Brooklyn does .. like these!

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lCjeEOJTLoo/R_VYErN_qoI/AAAAAAAAAb8/KpbIsYsfDig/s320/OCD+Monjas+%281%29.jpg[/img]



Ha! That is true .. it seriously does look a bit like without another veil on top .. Still I've gotten used to it somehow .. maybe from watching too much of the St. Teresa of Avila/&Andes movies!



No, thank you! I love learning about all of this! Seriously, expect a PM from me one of these days with even more questions, lol (no worries though .. i won't ask too much .. prayer comes first of course! ) It's great to have a Carmelite veteran here!



Interesting .. thanks for sharing again! So then there are two different outerveils .. the great veil and the Communion veil? Thanks! I had heard of a parlour veil, but hadn't heard of the name great veil. I guess that's what that is.
[/quote]

OH MY GOODNESS I AM SO HAPPY! I REALLY LIKE THE SPANISH VEILS AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT IVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE MOVIES TO MUCH TOO.

[krissylou]

Ohhhh, so in, say, the Teresa of the Andes movie there seemed to me to be a whole whole lot of white veils and it struck me as difficult (and demographically curious) for a high proportion of the sisters to be in formation. (Once I found out that Carmelites typically keep the white veil until final profession that helped some. But still.) That's one thing for, say Valparaiso (and now Elysburg) that is a recent foundation and has unique qualities and so attracts a whole lot of vocations. But for an established monastery ... it seemed very strange to me.

But if lay sisters kept the white veil in perpetuity, that would explain it.

Learn something new every day I do.

The great veils take my breath away. I don't think I could ever use them without tripping and breaking my neck.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1285071457' post='2175054']
Ohhhh, so in, say, the Teresa of the Andes movie there seemed to me to be a whole whole lot of white veils and it struck me as difficult (and demographically curious) for a high proportion of the sisters to be in formation. (Once I found out that Carmelites typically keep the white veil until final profession that helped some. But still.) That's one thing for, say Valparaiso (and now Elysburg) that is a recent foundation and has unique qualities and so attracts a whole lot of vocations. But for an established monastery ... it seemed very strange to me.

But if lay sisters kept the white veil in perpetuity, that would explain it.

Learn something new every day I do.

The great veils take my breath away. I don't think I could ever use them without tripping and breaking my neck.
[/quote]


The thing to remember about the St Teresa of the Andes movie is that the translation was really bad so it wasn't easy to figure out some of the things they were saying. The lay sisters were referred to as 'converts' at one point and that really confused me at first, and then later they called the Novice Mistress 'Teacher' but that is probably because the script used the word 'Maestro' in Spanish, so perhaps it was partly the fault of the script and partly the translation.

And yes, it is a long time for the choir nuns to wear a white veil - 5 years! But that is why the black veil is such a significant event for Carmelites - it is the culmination of all those years of formation, and the symbol of marriage to Christ through solemn vows. First Profession is very significant as well, but as those vows are only temporary, one can still choose to leave at the end of the three years.

[krissylou]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285073355' post='2175057']
The thing to remember about the St Teresa of the Andes movie is that the translation was really bad so it wasn't easy to figure out some of the things they were saying. The lay sisters were referred to as 'converts' at one point and that really confused me at first, and then later they called the Novice Mistress 'Teacher' but that is probably because the script used the word 'Maestro' in Spanish, so perhaps it was partly the fault of the script and partly the translation.

And yes, it is a long time for the choir nuns to wear a white veil - 5 years! But that is why the black veil is such a significant event for Carmelites - it is the culmination of all those years of formation, and the symbol of marriage to Christ through solemn vows. First Profession is very significant as well, but as those vows are only temporary, one can still choose to leave at the end of the three years.
[/quote]

Makes sense. So do junior professed and novices look the same?

In my perfect world, it would make sense for habits to be obviously different for novices, junior professed, and solemn/perpetual professed. (Something more conspicuous than the presence or absence of a profession ring.) I like how the Trappistines do it, where novices wear all white and change the white scapular for black at first profession but keep their white veils until solemn profession.

On my planet (population: one) that is a good way of doing things.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1285083225' post='2175076']
Makes sense. So do junior professed and novices look the same?

In my perfect world, it would make sense for habits to be obviously different for novices, junior professed, and solemn/perpetual professed. (Something more conspicuous than the presence or absence of a profession ring.) I like how the Trappistines do it, where novices wear all white and change the white scapular for black at first profession but keep their white veils until solemn profession.

On my planet (population: one) that is a good way of doing things.
[/quote]


I agree but in St Teresa's day they were very poor and even had to share their communion veils in the beginning of the foundations, so perhaps it was an issue of poverty that led them not to change clothes a lot. I like the idea of having changes at each stage, just like in the army, wearing different badges for different ranks. But then, on the other hand, it does make the sisters more equal if they all look the same. This way they are either Solemnly Professed or not....

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285083527' post='2175077']
I agree but in St Teresa's day they were very poor and even had to share their communion veils in the beginning of the foundations, so perhaps it was an issue of poverty that led them not to change clothes a lot. I like the idea of having changes at each stage, just like in the army, wearing different badges for different ranks. But then, on the other hand, it does make the sisters more equal if they all look the same. This way they are either Solemnly Professed or not....
[/quote]

Your point about poverty is an excellent one.

Plus (and please correct me if this is not what it is like), it seems as if Carmelite communities are far less concerned than other charisms with signs to the outside world that indicate how far along a particular nun is in their formation. Since Carmelite communities are deliberately small, I'd expect that, even if all the nuns wore identical clothes (although they don't), everyone in the community would still know exactly how far along in formation each nun was, and which nuns had made solemn vows.

I worked for a firm that never used titles to the outside world. No one's business card, no matter how senior the person was, had no title, only a name. But, when the firm was relatively small (although still much larger than a Carmel) everyone understood everyone else's role, and who to go to if you needed an expert on a particular subject, etc.

To, me, one interesting contrast to the Carmelite tradition of retaining a white veil until solemn profession (a symbolism that I think is beautiful, by the way, because it gives extra meaning and importance to solemn profession versus being in temporary vows), is the Nashville Dominicans. In that Community, there is generally one year of postulancy and one year of being a canonical novice, and then first vows are taken after two years in religious life, including being given a black veil. However, (I think) it is still another five years after first vows before final vows are taken, so the total period of time before final vows are taken is still quite a long time.

I have never read why the ND's give the black veil after only 2 years (sooner than many communities), but I wonder if it is so that Sisters actively involved in their teaching apostolate are all dressed the same. (I don't know whether or not the perpetually professed in that Community wear a ring.) Sisters who enter the ND's with a teaching certificate might well find themselves involved in the active apostolate in their third year (although, with supervision I expect), and perhaps it is important for credibility as a teachers that the Sisters wear the same habits and veils, although certainly Sisters who work together know how far along each Sister is in her formation, and who has taken her final vows.

I didn't mean to hijack a Carmelite thread with a mention of Dominicans--the ND's were simply an Community that I knew about that followed very different customs than the Carmelites.

Edited September 21, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[vee]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1285094619' post='2175117']

I didn't mean to hijack a Carmelite thread with a mention of Dominicans--the ND's were simply an Community that I knew about that followed very different customs than the Carmelites.
[/quote]


Carmelite, Dominican, Franciscan whichever we are all still brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the same family so I dont think its hijacking to talk about our own flesh and blood. Like in any family we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we fill up what is lacking in the other to make a whole. *GROUPHUG*

My two cents on veils from someone whos primary head covering looks like this and in the winter this although I wouldnt mind either of these as well A veil doesnt make or break a nun or sister, it covers her head but its what in her heart and her faithfulness to God and her vocation that count. To whom much is given much is expected so at their particular judgment those who were given a religious vocation (the same goes for any vocation) will be asked by God what they did with what they were given. I see a veil and think of the huge responsibility that comes with it because those who are chosen by God to wear it cant coast by on the greatness of their saintly predecessors, they are asked to be even greater than those who went before! I forget who said that either Teresa of Avila or Bl Elizabeth but it really is mind boggling to think about when one considers all the epic saints of any Order. Those called to religious life now are not to be another Rose, or Catherine, or Therese, or Clare but EVEN GREATER! Yikes! That makes for a heavy veil IMO!

[krissylou]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1285083527' post='2175077']
I agree but in St Teresa's day they were very poor and even had to share their communion veils in the beginning of the foundations, so perhaps it was an issue of poverty that led them not to change clothes a lot. I like the idea of having changes at each stage, just like in the army, wearing different badges for different ranks. But then, on the other hand, it does make the sisters more equal if they all look the same. This way they are either Solemnly Professed or not....
[/quote]

Good point.

And while I like their progressive habit changes, I MUCH prefer the Carmelite cloaks to the cucullas with the Sleeves that Ate Cleveland that they use for Mass and other formal worship. Whenever they need to turn the page in their prayerbooks you can see all the professed sisters flapping their arms so their hands can emerge out of the sleeves.

I do see the value of a habit, and I LOVED how you described wearing a habit as being embraced by God, but this particular design element seems to be an odd choice.



So clearly they all have their pluses and minuses.