Carmelite Nuns

[Chiquitunga]

Okay, one more post before I go to bed!! But first I need to reply to nunsense's speedy reply ..

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284792525' post='2174226']
I think the main thing to remember is that each community is allowed to make changes that suit their own lifestyle and even if one was started by a French foundress, the nuns may have preferred to use the Spanish style. I know that the extern headwear was changed several times over the years at the WA Carmel, and perhaps they changed the choir nuns' habit as well?

And perhaps some of them did decide to sew on the day veil - if they found this faster and easier to use?
[/quote]

Good point. And yes, maybe that's true that they did decide to sewn it down. If I get a chance, I will ask this specific community again ..



Okay, so I think the mystery is solved about the pinning and the Spanish veils! I think nunsense is right, that they must be pinned, lol I just noticed this [url="http://www.carmelitasecija.es.tl/Hermanas-en--.--.--.-.htm"]here[/url] .. and it looks like they pin them on the sides. And that would still make sense that it might be faster, even though there are two places to pin. It's probably easier than trying to get one right on top of your head


And then I was thinking of the Teresa of the Andes movie .. and how she just has the toque on in the final scenes before she dies ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67o8uGVz79s

And just watching this, it sure looks like the other nuns' veils are pinned in this way too, on the sides. So anyway, mystery solved! at least for now! But seriously, I think the sewing part then must be about the gathered look. Anyway, thanks nunsense for helping me to figure this all out!

Okay, enough introspection on veils!! If anyone has been idiotic at this point it's me Goodnight!

Edited September 18, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284795307' post='2174227']
Okay, one more post before I go to bed!! But first I need to reply to nunsense's speedy reply ..



Good point. And yes, maybe that's true that they did decide to sewn it down. If I get a chance, I will ask this specific community again ..



Okay, so I think the mystery is solved about the pinning and the Spanish veils! I think nunsense is right, that they must be pinned, lol I just noticed this [url="http://www.carmelitasecija.es.tl/Hermanas-en--.--.--.-.htm"]here[/url] .. and it looks like they pin them on the sides. And that would still make sense that it might be faster, even though there are two places to pin. It's probably easier than trying to get one right on top of your head


And then I was thinking of the Teresa of the Andes movie .. and how she just has the toque on in the final scenes before she dies ..

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67o8uGVz79s[/media]

And just watching this, it sure looks like the other nuns' veils are pinned in this way too, on the sides. So anyway, mystery solved! at least for now! But seriously, I think the sewing part then must be about the gathered look. Anyway, thanks nunsense for helping me to figure this all out!

Okay, enough introspection on veils!! If anyone has been idiotic at this point it's me Goodnight!
[/quote]

You're not being idiotic - these things can be fascinating! At Wolverhampton, we didn't wear the gathered day veil (underveil) but we pinned it in three places (top and sides) to keep it close to the head. The choir veil (overveil) we only used one pin on the top. But then we didn't keep this veil on all day - just for Mass and other special occasions.

[AccountDeleted]

duplicate post

Edited September 18, 2010 by nunsense

[Graciela]

I, too, find this so interesting.... I wonder if it is partly about how the habit (as would a uniform for the armed services) signifies one's belonging to a particular tradition/family.

I have noted that a few Carmels in the States retain the full toque and veil but no longer tuck the day veil under the scapular but let it flow over their shoulders. Port Tobacco and Terre Haute do this, with the French style of front.

I tried on an old toque during a live-in at a Carmel (was encouraged to do so by the nuns!), and was impressed by the simplicity of its method of getting it to stay on one's head- just two ties from the temples to the back to hold it on. A far cry from the very "trussed up" headgear of Mother Angelica's revision of the PCPA habit or the guimpe of the Cistercian (OCist) nuns in Wisconsin which has multiple seams and ties. The toque that I tried on had a face opening that felt very small for my face size and shape, so I wondered how difficult it was to sew them and custom fit them for each nun.

The nuns of the Episcopal Carmel of St. Terersa, a new Discalced Carmelite foundation in the Anglican communion, wear the tradition tunic and scapular, but wear a veil that really has nothing to do with the French or Spanish versions in Roman Catholic Carmels and without the toque. Their veil is like the veil that the contemplative (Anglican) Sisters of the Love of God (in England) wear- which makes sense since the foundress of the ECST spent 4 years with the Sisters of the Love of God before returning to the States and starting the Episcopal Carmel. (My personal preference is more for the traditional French style toque and veil, but you can take that with as many grains of salt as needed).

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284771430' post='2174177']
None of the four communities that I have been in have sewed their veil onto their toque. This wouldn't make practical sense IMO because the toque is washed more than the veil because of the sweat on the white material. We had three underveils, like the three toques and two overveils, one for everyday and one for Sundays. Because the overveil was taken off for work, it didn't need washing very much, and of course the Sunday one was only used once a week. Most of our underclothes and toques were rotated through the wash, wear one, keep one in the cupboard and one was sent to the laundry but the overveils got washed less frequently as I recall.

I would assume that straight pins are used to hold the veil down, at least that is what we did. The pins have a round colored bead on the end, white for Novices and black for Professed so that it blended in with the color of the veil. As to how far the veil comes down over the toque - there is a standard for it but let's face it, when one is trying to pin a veil to the toque at five in the morning with no mirror, it doesn't always get exactly where it should be. It is all done by touch and feel and prayer! I have had other sisters gently straighten the back of my veil when I finally stumbled down to choir in the morning, even when I used the reflection in the dark window of our cell to try to get it right!

This photo shows a gathered veil (underveil) and I think the pin holding it on is visible at the front in the center. It also show another thing I found fascinating about Carmelites, the large pin that is used to hold the scapular from slipping over the shoulders. This pin is sewed onto the scapular with a long string so it won't get lost! she is not wearing her overveil which she would put on for the choir and Mass. Usually the underveil is also tucked into the scapular at the back whereas the overveil is not. another thing I find interesting is that some nuns prefer to have their toques fitted tightly and sewn under the chin, whereas others prefer to have an opening under the chin that they close with a straight pin - that way they can adjust the fit. I had a pin, but I found it clumsy and would have preferred to have it sewn up.
[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/carmnun.jpg[/img]

Some communities started off using the 'gathered look at the front' veil but later changed to a more straight one. And because all communities are autonomous, sometimes they change but others from the same foundress do not. There may still be communities who use the communion veil, but since Vat 2, I am not sure about this. The 1990s Carmel I was in, did not. After Vat 2 some of the cutoms changed, even for the 1990s. For example, a 'tertiary' was always required in the parlor pre Vat 2. This was a nun who was appointed to sit behind the open grille doors out of sight while the other nun was having her parlour visit . This was done even when visiting with family members. As far as I know, this practice was discontinued in all monasteries along with other customs such as having lay sisters (white veils).
[/quote]

Interesting Nunsense... I my former OCD 1990 monastery we still had a tertiary during our very infrequent visits to the parlour. In all of My Monasteries both french and spanish as well as 1990 and 1991's we wore the Communion veil for mass. We also had a night veil and night scapular which always wound up around my neck by morning..lol. Only one of my Communities wore a great veil.

As for the spanish veils.. they were not sewn onto the toque in my monastery but as you said were changable as the touque got changed more frequently. We had three toques and three changes of under tunics a week. But only had the one we were wearing at a time until the laundress would deliver the clean one so no extra clothes in the cell.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284755955' post='2174142']
Wait Wait Spanish and French veils huh? So the Spanish ones dont need a pen?

Oh dose the Brooklyn Carmelites have Spanish veils?

What about the ones is Nebraska?
[/quote]

Brooklyn Wears the french veils.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284876422' post='2174485']
Brooklyn Wears the french veils.
[/quote]
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]


[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284876289' post='2174484']
Interesting Nunsense... I my former OCD 1990 monastery we still had a tertiary during our very infrequent visits to the parlour. In all of My Monasteries both french and spanish as well as 1990 and 1991's we wore the Communion veil for mass. We also had a night veil and night scapular which always wound up around my neck by morning..lol. Only one of my Communities wore a great veil.[/quote]

Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284876289' post='2174484']As for the spanish veils.. they were not sewn onto the toque in my monastery but as you said were changable as the touque got changed more frequently.[/quote]

Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284878806' post='2174487']
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]




Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..



Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D
[/quote]

Thank you for these links.... Mother Marie Ange was my Novice Mistress and Mother Josepha Marie was my Prioress when i was there. Interestingly enough the article does not mention what happened to Mother Josepha. I know for a fact that not all of the original sisters from Brooklyn died even though the article states that they all did. One of them is still there in the new foundation. I know because when i called the monastery, i was told first that they had all died and when i told the prioress who i was, only then did she tell me that that sister was there and sent her love. In respect for her i do not mention her name.

Brooklyn was/is a very fervent monastery. However they suffered very much at the hands of other Carmelite nuns because they stood firm to what they believed, right or wrong. They were forcefully closed down by a former Bishop in the diocese. Much of the accusations at that time were purely false. I am sure it was a true crucifixion for those who have since gone on to their reward. However their detractors also felt that they were being faithful in preserving the spirit of OHM. It is so complicated.

It seems that the Order of Carmel is going through a collective dark night of the soul. The division sometimes run deep as they seek to find balance again in the wake of the second council. Each Carmel seeks to be true to our holy Mother's vision and they all have valid points. The question often is if fidelity is found in adhering strictly to what was first laid down by Teresa as opposed to Later constitutions and to complicate matters there is a question of going further back to Carmels ancient roots as hermits and not as cenobites. The Second council did stress religious communities going back to their roots... However where do the roots of an OCD lie? Is it in the original rule and the ancient observance or is it roots dating from the time of the reform? But then again, The nuns never did have the opportunity to exist as hermits as they were founded after the migration to Europe from Mount Carmel. So the question is do the nuns get to go back to the hermit roots like the Fathers or do we still get caught in the life of the cenobium only to experience the hermit life a couple of days a month at most?

My Own community has returned to the life as hermits where in we spend most of our day in the hermitage except for 4 hours a day working at assigned tasks alone in the main monastery. In keeping with the original rule we come together only to hear mass daily and once a week for communal chapter and recreation and meal on Saturday evenings. The rest of the time is spent in the silence and solitude of the hermitage. Conversation during the week is limited to instruction for work, spiritual guidance and ongoing formational studies weekly. It is not a rigid silence but one freely taken on by each of the hermits as part of the patrimony of Carmel. All of the sisters except one are former OCD's we still wear full habit, keep the fasts etc...It is just as authentic as are the other expressions of Carmel.

What i do know is that each and very sister in Carmel whether 1990, 1991, or Hermit nuns.. is trying to live faithfully the Carmelite charism. In the end that is what counts most and we must learn to live and let live not second guessing another's motivations. I have only extreme love and respect for all my sisters in Carmel whether 1990, 1991, or hermits nuns and I embrace all willingly as I pray that each may become saints in their perfect love of God. I see myself no division but only different aspects of the beauty that is Carmel.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284878806' post='2174487']
The old Brooklyn Carmel did (I think I remember you said you were in that one .. awesome!! )

But the new one is definitely Spanish. They were founded from Buffalo which came from Mexico. But even more so, three of the nuns in Brooklyn including Reverend Mother were in the Carmel in Toledo. So I've heard they are almost more like a foundation from there than from Buffalo with all the particularly Spanish customs they have.

[img]http://i34.tinypic.com/28wm8pf.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFYE3-W9w4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JDFYE3-W9w4[/url]

[url="http://old.dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/08_17_04.html"]http://old.dioceseof...t/08_17_04.html[/url]




Interesting .. thanks for sharing! By the way, what is the great veil? Is it the one like the the [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]dramatic picture[/url] here? ..



Do you remember, were they pinned on the sides, as I was guessing .. rather than right in the middle as the French veils are? Thanks! :D
[/quote]

Laughing.. Yes that is a picture of the great veil usually only worn in the parlour or when the the enclosure gate had to be opened for some reason. When workmen would come to the monastery or a priest had to enter the enclosure to give the sacraments a bell would be rung warning the sisters to to keep to their cells and out of sight so usually outside of the parlour we did not wear the great veil. At time of Holy communion when the communion grate would open we would pull down our communion veil so our eyes were hidden... most do not do this anymore.

Thank you for setting me straight about Brooklyn's refoundation. Buffalo is an awesome Carmel. Buffalo was founded from the mexican Carmels and so would have the Spanish veil whereas originally Brooklyn was i think the seventh or ninth Carmel founded in the US. It was founded from Port Tobacco Carmel which later became Baltimore Carmel. The original sisters who came to the US were from the Carmel in Antwerp which came from the French Carmels. The Matthews sisters ( The original Founding Carmelites) still have decendants living in Port Tobacco. Port Tobacco was refounded in the 1970's. One of our hermits, then an OCD, was part of that refounding community.

The Spanish veil was pinned in the front and on the sides where i was but i am sure each Carmel does it differently. I never cared for the Spanish look as it looked like you were wearing a football helmet LOL.

Laughing and so here is all you never wanted to know about Carmel in the United States.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284773086' post='2174183']
I thought this was a pretty historical picture. It is a photo of the foundresses of the Nedlands Carmel with their visitors, the Good Shepherd Sisters. There is a Carmelite extern in the back on the left (wearing the bonnet type headgear). Later, this habit was changed so that the extern looked more like the choir sisters. I don't know if the white veils in this photo are lay sisters or Novices.[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/WithGoodShepherdsisters.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Wow Nunsense That is a pretty radical picture for those days... I mean Carmelites were almost never seen in pics in those days so openly.... mind blowing!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1284888413' post='2174499']
Wow Nunsense That is a pretty radical picture for those days... I mean Carmelites were almost never seen in pics in those days so openly.... mind blowing!
[/quote]


Funny you should say that because St Therese was in a lot of photos with her Carmelite sisters and she died in 1897. These nuns founded the Carmel in 1935 so I am not sure what is so mind blowing about them being in photos. I have lots of photos of the early days of this Carmel - they were put together for their 75th anniversary while I was there and given to me on a CD.


Here is a photo of the foundresses leaving Sydney by ship for Perth in 1935. You can see the extern in the center - with the strange headgear! I am posting two versions of this because in one you can see the nuns better and in the other the whole scene is easier to see.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Shipwindows1935.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Manoora18May35sharper.jpg[/img]

Edited September 19, 2010 by nunsense

[vee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284893063' post='2174501']
Funny you should say that because St Therese was in a lot of photos with her Carmelite sisters and she died in 1897. These nuns founded the Carmel in 1935 so I am not sure what is so mind blowing about them being in photos. I have lots of photos of the early days of this Carmel - they were put together for their 75th anniversary while I was there and given to me on a CD.

[/quote]

Cool pics! Im very impressed by Celine who managed to own a camera in the early days of cameras AND somehow get it into Carmel, and who had the patience to take pics on giant glass negatives! To Celine as a a photog In the book I have about St Teresa of the Andes it talks about how this pic came to be because remember Teresa made her final vows on her deathbed, so how can she be in this pic as a fully professed nun?

[img]http://www.decorcarmeli.com/images/TeresssaAndesStanding.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kilmacudcarmel.ie/images/andes1.jpg[/img]

In her Carmel's case before entrance the aspirant, I guess she would be, would go to a photo studio and be dressed in the full habit for one photo, and in regular clothes for another. The pic above of her in civvies was taken at the same time. The family would be able to keep these and that was it for pics forever, at least according to that one book. I found that interesting and thought Id share

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284897667' post='2174509']
Cool pics! Im very impressed by Celine who managed to own a camera in the early days of cameras AND somehow get it into Carmel, and who had the patience to take pics on giant glass negatives! To Celine as a a photog In the book I have about St Teresa of the Andes it talks about how this pic came to be because remember Teresa made her final vows on her deathbed, so how can she be in this pic as a fully professed nun?

[img]http://www.decorcarmeli.com/images/TeresssaAndesStanding.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kilmacudcarmel.ie/images/andes1.jpg[/img]

In her Carmel's case before entrance the aspirant, I guess she would be, would go to a photo studio and be dressed in the full habit for one photo, and in regular clothes for another. The pic above of her in civvies was taken at the same time. The family would be able to keep these and that was it for pics forever, at least according to that one book. I found that interesting and thought Id share
[/quote]

Yeah, I love that story. She never actually got to wear the black veil since she only spent 11 months in Carmel before she died, but she was able to make her profession in anticipation - neat huh? I figure as long as I can get clothed again, then I can die because I will be able to die a religious... and anticipate my vows too! lol

One of the older nuns made a joke about St T of the Andes. She said "Eleven months! Let her try 60 years in Carmel!" I think all of the older nuns are saints - just to live the life for that long!


By the way - someone mentioned the ties at the back of the toque... nowadays some of the Carmels use velcro instead!

[vee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284898159' post='2174511']
Yeah, I love that story. She never actually got to wear the black veil since she only spent 11 months in Carmel before she died, but she was able to make her profession in anticipation - neat huh? I figure as long as I can get clothed again, then I can die because I will be able to die a religious... and anticipate my vows too! lol

One of the older nuns made a joke about St T of the Andes. She said "Eleven months! Let her try 60 years in Carmel!" I think all of the older nuns are saints - just to live the life for that long!

[/quote]
nice goal hahaha!! Thatd be awesome to see you canonized in my lifetime!

Ya its funny how it seems all the Carmelite saints I think of, except Teresa of Avila, died after a rather short stint in Carmel. There definitely needs to be someone canonized who was in for 50-60 years!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284900860' post='2174514']
nice goal hahaha!! Thatd be awesome to see you canonized in my lifetime!

Ya its funny how it seems all the Carmelite saints I think of, except Teresa of Avila, died after a rather short stint in Carmel. There definitely needs to be someone canonized who was in for 50-60 years!
[/quote]


Oh - I'll never be canonized Vee - I know the mechanics of the process too well and I don't qualify - but that doesn't mean I can't become a saint anyway - there are lots of uncanonized saints in heaven.

And I'll never make it to 50 or 60 years in Carmel unless God makes me live to 110 or 120. My first profession won't be until I am at least 61 so add 50 or 50 years to that??? The best I could ask for would be a silver jubilee!

And I am too keen to be with Jesus to hang around here that long!

That's why I plan to get clothed and then offer myself as a sacrifice for the Church - neat plan huh?? Just don't tell my Prioress, she might not like the plan!