Carmelite Nuns

[carmelite15]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkg_TXb7c_k[/media]

Thank you.

[Yaatee]

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284669436' post='2173876']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkg_TXb7c_k[/media]

Thank you.
[/quote]s

where is this from? Which carmel?

Beautiful habit. I love the black bit with thin white rim over forehead and the way the guimpe (?) continues under and past the scapular over the shoulders. The Spanish look. Very nice.

[Yaatee]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1284674336' post='2173901']
s

where is this from? Which carmel?

Beautiful habit. I love the black bit with thin white rim over forehead and the way the guimpe (?) continues under and past the scapular over the shoulders. The Spanish look. Very nice.
[/quote]

Here it is:

[url="http://www.karmel.at/christchurch.nz/"]http://www.karmel.at/christchurch.nz/[/url]

New Zealand, Christchurch, southern tip of the South Island, from which some of the explorers to Antarctica embarked.

Looks very orthodox. Nunsense, did you look at this one?

[vee]

In case anyone is wondering what the video is about before watching it the nuns are talking about their experiences with the recent earthquake in New Zealand. Its worth watching IMO.

[AccountDeleted]

These nuns are very sweet. They were founded two years before the Perth one where I am going. Don't you just love the Kiwi accent? It is close to the Oz one but the vowels are slightly different, especially the 'i'. When they say 'fish and chips' it sounds like 'fush and chups' (not exactly, but it is so cute).

One of our sisters had to go overseas recently and she was going to stop off in Auckland NZ on the way back in late September, so we will get an update from her about how our Christchurch sisters are doing when she gets back.

The Prioress at my community emailed me shortly after the quake to say that all were well in NZ, but it is nice that the nuns have done this video too. I will email the link to the Prioress in Perth in case they haven't seen it. I am sure she will share it with all of the community. Thanks for that!!

I edited this post to change the statement that this community is part of our Association. It is Auckland Carmel who are in the Association, not Christchurch. Sorry for any confusion.

Edited September 17, 2010 by nunsense

[Chiquitunga]

Nice! Thanks for sharing, Brandee! I have a friend in NZ who sounds just like them. I love it! By the way, you all may have already seen this but there's a few part series with Sr. Cushla on youtube too .. part 1 ..

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQNk5F-peg0[/media]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1284674336' post='2173901']
Beautiful habit. I love the black bit with thin white rim over forehead and the way the guimpe (?) continues under and past the scapular over the shoulders. The Spanish look. Very nice.
[/quote]
I love the Spanish habit/veil too! I think these Sisters' veils are mostly French, but with more of a Spanish look as you say (as I believe the origins of all the NZ monasteries are) with some of the guimpe coming out of the scapular and the sewn down day veil, as I've seen it mentioned as [url="http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/carmelite-nun-doll-patterns/3127950"]here[/url] in the preview. Actually when I first saw the Spanish veil (an example .. [url="http://romancatholicvocations.blogspot.com/2007/12/gods-housewife.html"]an article[/url] on a First Profession at the Carmel in FL) I thought it was elastic that was keeping it down .. but no, it's sewn down. And I've heard (from someone who was in both a Spanish and French Carmel) that it's a bit easier to put on every morning than the French veil, which has to be pinned.

Anyway, beautiful video! Thanks again, Brandee!

Edited September 17, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[strgzr00]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284704590' post='2174021']
Nice! Thanks for sharing, Brandee! I have a friend in NZ who sounds just like them. I love it! By the way, you all may have already seen this but there's a few part series with Sr. Cushla on youtube too .. part 1 ..

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQNk5F-peg0[/media]


I love the Spanish habit/veil too! I think these Sisters' veils are mostly French, but with more of a Spanish look as you say (as I believe the origins of all the NZ monasteries are) with some of the guimpe coming out of the scapular and the sewn down day veil, as I've seen it mentioned as [url="http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/carmelite-nun-doll-patterns/3127950"]here[/url] in the preview. Actually when I first saw the Spanish veil (an example .. [url="http://romancatholicvocations.blogspot.com/2007/12/gods-housewife.html"]an article[/url] on a First Profession at the Carmel in FL) I thought it was elastic that was keeping it down .. but no, it's sewn down. And I've heard (from someone who was in both a Spanish and French Carmel) that it's a bit easier to put on every morning than the French veil, which has to be pinned.

Anyway, beautiful video! Thanks again, Brandee!
[/quote]

It's idiotic to pursue this, but are you referring to how they achieve that black -cap -with -the- white- lining peeking out--look? This is very elegant. Are you saying that the white underlining is sewn onto to the black cap? I have always wondered how the Spanish sisters/nuns achieve this--I have seen this black cap-with the white-lining-look in other Spanish habits.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='strgzr00' timestamp='1284745985' post='2174114']
It's idiotic to pursue this, but are you referring to how they achieve that black -cap -with -the- white- lining peeking out--look? This is very elegant. Are you saying that the white underlining is sewn onto to the black cap? I have always wondered how the Spanish sisters/nuns achieve this--I have seen this black cap-with the white-lining-look in other Spanish habits.
[/quote]

No, it's not idiotic, lol. You're fine .. I have often wondered about this myself. Yes, I am referring to that.

[quote]
Are you saying that the white underlining is sewn onto to the black cap?[/quote]

No. Rather the black or white [url="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31035735&fbid=1383523915918&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=256773812992&id=1466592662#%21/photo.php?pid=31035750&fbid=1383529876067&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=256773812992&aid=-1&oid=256773812992&id=1466592662"]day veil[/url] (and here she is with the [url="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31035735&fbid=1383523915918&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=256773812992&id=1466592662#%21/photo.php?pid=31035646&fbid=1383482394880&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=256773812992&aid=-1&oid=256773812992&id=1466592662"]Communion veil[/url] on top of the day veil .. which flips down to cover the face ) is sewn on top of the white toque (or guimpe .. but I think in Carmel it's referred to as a toque) underneath. The material is gathered across the forehead part of the toque which creates the elastic look .. and the white lining is the toque underneath. Check out page 8 in the preview [url="http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/carmelite-nun-doll-patterns/3127950"]here[/url] (though this doll's day veil is sewn on too high .. maybe because it worked better with the Ginny doll) to see the toque and day veil without the scapular on. I hope this makes sense, lol

[quote]I have always wondered how the Spanish sisters/nuns achieve this--I have seen this black cap-with the white-lining-look in other Spanish habits.[/quote]

Yep, the Conceptionists have it like this too ..

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_opuflC3f8SI/S8r_3qVANxI/AAAAAAAABVU/tLNRhGh9uyc/s1600/agreda+cuerpo+presente.jpg[/img]

wax figure of Ven. Mary of Agreda

But referring back to the NZ nuns and how they have it this way too .. I have seen other French origin Carmels with the sewn down look also .. like Flemington here .. [url="http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/18"]http://db.religiousl.../irl.nsf/org/18[/url] So really I think each community often makes their own adaptions. But generally it's that either they're Spanish or French with possible adaptions.

Also, I have seen differences in the Spanish veil on how low some communities have them. Some are a bit higher like the picture of Ven. Maria Felicia "Chiquitunga" in my profile picture. But generally, the French veils are usually the highest on the forehead, like St. Therese (and I think in some French communities they don't have a separate day and Communion veil worn over it .. though I'm not sure .. Sr. Cushla in the second video here definitely looks like she has the Communion .. or sometimes called parlor veil .. on top of the day veil here .. that's another time many Carmels will put on the outer veil .. when greeting visitors in the parlor .. though they aren't in the first video, but it's a little less formal)

[img]http://www.littleflowerparish.com/uploads/st-therese-0.jpg[/img]


Anyway, this is all very interesting

Edited September 17, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[carmelite15]

Wait Wait Spanish and French veils huh? So the Spanish ones dont need a pen?

Oh dose the Brooklyn Carmelites have Spanish veils?

What about the ones is Nebraska?

[AccountDeleted]

None of the four communities that I have been in have sewed their veil onto their toque. This wouldn't make practical sense IMO because the toque is washed more than the veil because of the sweat on the white material. We had three underveils, like the three toques and two overveils, one for everyday and one for Sundays. Because the overveil was taken off for work, it didn't need washing very much, and of course the Sunday one was only used once a week. Most of our underclothes and toques were rotated through the wash, wear one, keep one in the cupboard and one was sent to the laundry but the overveils got washed less frequently as I recall.

I would assume that straight pins are used to hold the veil down, at least that is what we did. The pins have a round colored bead on the end, white for Novices and black for Professed so that it blended in with the color of the veil. As to how far the veil comes down over the toque - there is a standard for it but let's face it, when one is trying to pin a veil to the toque at five in the morning with no mirror, it doesn't always get exactly where it should be. It is all done by touch and feel and prayer! I have had other sisters gently straighten the back of my veil when I finally stumbled down to choir in the morning, even when I used the reflection in the dark window of our cell to try to get it right!

This photo shows a gathered veil (underveil) and I think the pin holding it on is visible at the front in the center. It also show another thing I found fascinating about Carmelites, the large pin that is used to hold the scapular from slipping over the shoulders. This pin is sewed onto the scapular with a long string so it won't get lost! she is not wearing her overveil which she would put on for the choir and Mass. Usually the underveil is also tucked into the scapular at the back whereas the overveil is not. another thing I find interesting is that some nuns prefer to have their toques fitted tightly and sewn under the chin, whereas others prefer to have an opening under the chin that they close with a straight pin - that way they can adjust the fit. I had a pin, but I found it clumsy and would have preferred to have it sewn up.
[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/carmnun.jpg[/img]

Some communities started off using the 'gathered look at the front' veil but later changed to a more straight one. And because all communities are autonomous, sometimes they change but others from the same foundress do not. There may still be communities who use the communion veil, but since Vat 2, I am not sure about this. The 1990s Carmel I was in, did not. After Vat 2 some of the cutoms changed, even for the 1990s. For example, a 'tertiary' was always required in the parlor pre Vat 2. This was a nun who was appointed to sit behind the open grille doors out of sight while the other nun was having her parlour visit . This was done even when visiting with family members. As far as I know, this practice was discontinued in all monasteries along with other customs such as having lay sisters (white veils).

Edited September 18, 2010 by nunsense

[AccountDeleted]

I thought this was a pretty historical picture. It is a photo of the foundresses of the Nedlands Carmel with their visitors, the Good Shepherd Sisters. There is a Carmelite extern in the back on the left (wearing the bonnet type headgear). Later, this habit was changed so that the extern looked more like the choir sisters. I don't know if the white veils in this photo are lay sisters or Novices.[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/WithGoodShepherdsisters.jpg[/img]

[AccountDeleted]

I was given way too many old photos during the recent 75th anniversary, so I thought I would post a few of them here. I just love photos of nuns, especially the old ones.

And since these are all Carmelites, why not here?

These two are externs wearing the old style habit - I am not found of the headgear, but I do like the little white collar. The scapular neckline goes all the way to the neck, unlike the traditional Carmelite choir nun habit.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Bothexternsoldhabit.jpg[/img]

[AccountDeleted]

One last one for now. I think this one shows a good example of the two veils being worn. The underveil is showing around her shoulders under the scapular and the overveil is on the outside of the scapular. It isn't always easy to see the two veils one on top of the other because the underveil is usually tucked back more, but this photo catches them both.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/Srveils.jpg[/img]

[Chiquitunga]

Okay, long post here

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284771430' post='2174177']
None of the four communities that I have been in have sewed their veil onto their toque. This wouldn't make practical sense IMO because the toque is washed more than the veil because of the sweat on the white material.[/quote]

Hmm .. that makes sense about washing them. I hadn't thought of that I was told this about them being sewn by a nun in a US Carmel from Mexican/Spanish origin. She spent some time in a US Carmel of French origin also, and told me it took a little longer to put on, because you had to pin it .. whereas you don't have to pin the day/under veil on the Spanish one (though you do for the Communion day veil) By the way, I'm taking this terminology from that little Carmelite nun [url="http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/carmelite-nun-doll-patterns/3127950"]doll patterns book[/url]. Here's a screen shot of page 6 ..

[center][img]http://i56.tinypic.com/dzi3it.png[/img]
[/center]


However, maybe what she meant by the sewing part was how they get the gathered look .. it is sewn that way. However, I think I remember her saying you don't have to pin the Spanish day veil, whereas you do with the French .. and she said it took a good extra 5 minutes to put on. So now I wonder .. how to do they keep it on the toque if it's not pinned down?? .. hmm. I'll have to ask!

[quote]There may still be communities who use the communion veil, but since Vat 2, I am not sure about this. The 1990s Carmel I was in, did not. After Vat 2 some of the cutoms changed, even for the 1990s.
[/quote]

I believe a few at least in the US still do. [url="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=851017&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=22797604643&aid=-1&id=515138900&oid=22797604643#%21/photo.php?pid=851015&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=22797604643&aid=-1&id=515138900&oid=22797604643&fbid=28480448900"]Here's[/url] a picture from Littleton of a nun with her face veiled receiving Holy Communion. I heard they do this also from someone from the Augustine Institute nearby who knows them well. I saw them do this for sure in Valparaiso. But yes, I have heard there are other times where they always veiled their faces where they don't anymore .. like in speaking with people outside of their families in the parlor. I believe before this it used to be that they had to cover their faces along with having the double grille!! though I'm not 100% sure exactly when this was done .. but I remember reading about it in [i]My Beloved: The Story of a Carmelite Nun[/i]. It says in this rather dramatic picture [url="http://www.corbisimages.com/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=HU041599&tab=details&caller=search"]here[/url] generally that they never show their faces in public.


[quote]This photo shows a gathered veil (underveil) and I think the pin holding it on is visible at the front in the center. It also show another thing I found fascinating about Carmelites, the large pin that is used to hold the scapular from slipping over the shoulders.

[img]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/nunsense/carmnun.jpg[/img][/quote]

I think this picture comes from a Carmel in NZ though, so it would make sense they have the pin in the front. But again .. I do still wonder how the Spanish nuns keep it down .. I am going to ask! I know for sure they use the big pins to keep the scapular down.

[quote]Some communities started off using the 'gathered look at the front' veil but later changed to a more straight one. And because all communities are autonomous, sometimes they change but others from the same foundress do not. [/quote]

That's true .. the communities do often make adaptions.

[quote name='carmelite15' timestamp='1284755955' post='2174142']
Wait Wait Spanish and French veils huh? So the Spanish ones dont need a pen?

Oh dose the Brooklyn Carmelites have Spanish veils?

What about the ones is Nebraska?
[/quote]

Both definitely Spanish!

Basically, from what I've observed/been told by US Carmels ..

The French habit/veil (without the outerveil) .. lol, sorry it's getting late ..

[img]http://www.carmelitesistersbythesea.net/smc%20jubilee%20feathered_SMALL.jpg[/img]

And The Spanish (without the outerveil) .. okay, that's a Mexican emoticon but since the US Spanish Carmels have origins in Mexico ..

[img]http://www.carmelitasvalladolid.es//mediapool/63/639852/images/16_julio2006_079.jpg[/img]


Everything else, generally, is in between (though now that I've been searching the internet so much for pictures, I'm seeing a ton of variations, lol .. but generally you can tell if they are more Spanish or French) though again, this is just what I've observed from US Carmels. And in the end, they all came from Spain! But the customs/veils, etc. changed a bit in France .. so generally there are two sets of customs now .. at least this is how I've heard it from a few Carmels around here .. they, the nuns, are often saying .. they are French, when referring to a different Carmel .. or Spanish, etc.

Anyway, again, it is all very interesting

Edited September 18, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1284792009' post='2174225']


I think this picture comes from a Carmel in NZ though, so it would make sense they have the pin in the front. But again .. I do still wonder how the Spanish nuns keep it down .. :thinking: I am going to ask! I know for sure they use the big pins to keep the scapular down.


Everything else is in between!! (though now that I've been searching the internet so much for pictures, I'm seeing a ton of variations, lol .. but generally you can tell if they are more Spanish or French) though again, this is just what I've observed from US Carmels. And in the end they all came from Spain! But the customs/veils, etc. changed a bit in France .. so generally there are two sets of customs now .. at least this is how I've heard it from a few Carmels around here .. they, the nuns, are often saying .. they are French, when referring to a different Carmel .. or Spanish, etc.

Anyway, again, it is all very interesting
[/quote]

The nun in the picture you mentioned was from the Carmel in Western Australia - they gave me a CD of photos that they used for their 75th anniversary celebration. Their foundresses were from France.



I think the main thing to remember is that each community is allowed to make changes that suit their own lifestyle and even if one was started by a French foundress, the nuns may have preferred to use the Spanish style. I know that the extern headwear was changed several times over the years at the WA Carmel, and perhaps they changed the choir nuns' habit as well?

And perhaps some of them did decide to sew on the day veil - if they found this faster and easier to use?