Pants Vs. Skirts For Women ...

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1284859321' post='2174427']
You use a lot of graphic description in your posts. I feel that you have some twisted mental images in your head and that is coming out in your language. Just fyi, if that keeps up I'm going to have to put you on "ignore," because it is offensive and disturbing to me.

Sex is holy.

Pre-marital, pornographic, forcible sex etc. are wrong precisely because it mocks what is sacred.

From the Catechism:




Men and women sanctified by the vocation of marriage:
St. Anne and St. Joachim, whose conjugal union gave us Our Lady
St. Peter, the first Pope
St. Timothy and his wife St. Maura
St. Perpetua and St. Felicity, early Christian martyrs
St. Elizabeth Ann Seaton
St. Margaret of Scotland
St. Thomas Moore
St. Monica
St. Isobel of Portugal
St. Louis, King of France
St. Elizabeth of Hungary
St. Natalia and her husband St. Adrian
St. Gianna Molla
Blesseds Louis and Zelie Martin
Blesseds Louis and Maria Quattrocchi.
Blessed Maria Corsini

additionally ... although Our Lady and St. Joseph abstained, still it was in their vocations to family life (e.g., picking up after Our Lord Jesus,) that they both grew in grace.
[/quote]

Lill, I'll "tone it down" because I like this website, I'm very impressed with it, and I think it's providing an awesome service to the Catholic Church. The name alone "Phatmass" is off the hook.

Plus, as I've stated in a different thread, I'm new here and don't desire to create any discord between members. I also don't desire to make any of the mods job any harder than it might already be.

But lets be clear: you don't like me and nothing I say or do would nor will ever change that. I've been around the block. There's a reason I prefer animals (not human animals) over humans. Every human hates - that includes you. We can cut with the pretended holiness. Almost every Catholic I've ever met has had, in varying levels, hate, dishonesty, and vengeance in their heart. And that's the good ones.

To be honest, I did not view my comments as "graphic." LOL maybe that's because my actual writing style is far more graphic then any thing I've written on here. My writing style is influenced by Iceberg Slim, in particular his book [i]Mama Black Widow, [/i]if I remember the title correctly. To this day it's the most gritty, straight real-to-life, book I've ever read. I'm also a product of Generation X gangsta rap music. If you ever listened to Tupac's [i]Hit Em Up[/i] or Mc Eight's... what's the name of that cut? It starts... "A_____ childhood is the reason the way I am." It was on the [i]Menace to Society [/i]soundtrack. At any rate, if you ever heard those songs, and how they communicate, then you'd better understand what has helped give formation to me in life.

My own life has been quite "gritty" if that's what you want to call it. Almost every black male my age in my neighborhood has a felony. I don't, but I've committed felonies in one form or another but just never been caught. Currently, a good friend of mine is doing time in prison, originally he started his time out in USP maximum security Terre Haute, Indiana, and I'm told one of the members of his bank robbing crew was on Americas Most wanted TV program prior to being apprehended, on the run, in New York City. My friend is Protestant raised, he did time in prison as a youth, when he shot his older brother, who used to jump on him after he himself did time in prison for an attempted murder on his mother's abusive boyfriend to graphic for me to recount here. His mother was an alcoholic, his father didn't want to have much to do with him, and his sister was a crack addicted prostitute.

I've asked his permission to co-write the story of his life. He was inspired even more after I informed him through a letter, that famed urban fiction author Donald Goines (Donald G. was raised Catholic by the way and a Korean War veteran) did time in USP Terre Haute, Indiana. And there are a number of black Milwaukeeans published in the reemerging popularity of "urban fiction." However, I'm not interested in writing fiction nor do I believe I have a talent there. Non-fiction is what I would like to write. I know I could find an audience for my style of writing in urban fiction. The question is... can one bring a theme or sub-theme of [i]catholicity[/i] to urban fiction? That's possible. It's also possible certain styles of writing or communicating could evangelize on a small or larger scale. That's not to suggest that would be a goal of mine. But my point is, there are certain audiences that would listen to you, per evangelizing work, and shut me out. On the other hand there are certain audiences that would be far more inclined to hear or read what I have to say, per it's message of [i]catholicity[/i], than to listen to you, and shut you out.

Your presumption that you are some holy person and God is only capable of working through you and not me, is your thang, and not Gods. My Germanic ancestors were converted by a fantastic literary work that could only appeal to their warrior-chiefdom senses. It was written by Germanic Catholic Monks (Franks I believe), seeking to convert the pagan Saxons. Jesus was presented as the great warrior chief and and his 12 apostles as his warrior retainers. And I don't want to inform you about ancient crucifix produced by some Germanic tribe, discovered, and recounted in one of my books on the history of Christianity. Apparently it was fine for this published book produced by several Christian scholars (Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox), but not so appropriate to be recounted here. Suffice it to say, Jesus was not built like one of the many Greek statues. LOL. But those barbarians, illiterate and unrefined, beginning with Clovis, later with Charles Martel at Tours, and eventually at Richard the Lion Hearted in the Middle East, did more that the refined and learned subjects of Constantinople, or Constantine the Great himself, to save Christendom (though Christendom did not exist during the time of Constantine the Great arguably).

By the way, I might be very distantly related to Constantine the Great through my German lineage.




Here's Wikipedia info on Iceberg Slim (bear in mind, Chicago and Milwaukee are suppose to be the vortex of the vice, "pimping" in the Midwest, if not the whole country): [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceberg_Slim"]My link[/url]

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284865432' post='2174457']

But lets be clear: you don't like me and nothing I say or do would nor will ever change that. I've been around the block. There's a reason I prefer animals (not human animals) over humans. Every human hates - that includes you. We can cut with the pretended holiness.

Your presumption that you are some holy person and God is only capable of working through you and not me, is your thang, and not Gods.
[/quote]


Over the top.

[Lilllabettt]

Back on Topic:

A great online store for modest, fashionable dresses: [url="http://www.shabbyapple.com/"]http://www.shabbyapple.com/[/url]

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1284865802' post='2174458']
Over the top.
[/quote]
I don't think so.

And you are not going to convince me of:

A) You personally are holy.

B) It logically follows (per the two system value in the field of logic) that become married equals holiness.

It logically follows that 50% of U.S. marriages ending in divorce necessarily discredits your proposition (built it seems to me, on what logicians call a "conditional"). Furthermore, I've encountered literally thousands of married people throughout the United States. I've yet met a single married couple that were holy. And don't get me started on military base housing. "Marriage"? yeah... adultery more like it. This does not logically follow that it's impossible for [u][i]some[/i][/u] married couples or certain individual married people to obtain holiness.

But at least I didn't write the story of Sodom (I wonder where the term "sodomy" comes from? Hmmm.) and Gomorrah. What twisted mind of unholiness produced that work of literature? Such a thing couldn't have been inspired by God? A familiar with any of the homoeortic literature produced by some of the monks in the Middle Ages? It's suppose to be mystical writings to the Catholic Church so far as I know. And sweet Jesus, I've produced nothing on par with the blatant homoeroitic religious works commissioned by clergy and beloved by Catholicism, done by Leonard Da Vinici (the proud and boastful pedophile) and Caravaggio. And Caravaggio takes the case, given one of the young boys he was "intimate" with (I don't want to offend any sensitive ears) he painted (not surprisingly resembling a girl). Most if not all his religious paintings used real life female prostitutes of Southern Italy, depicting female biblical characters. The Church was fine with this, as these real life female prostitutes were well known in reputation.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Chi Zhuzi

[Lilllabettt]

Back on topic:

The University I attend is big on getting its seniors to have jobs lined up before they graduate. So there is mandatory training at the career center.

This week they had instructions about what to wear to interviews. The woman giving the presentation said to wear a suit skirt. Not pants, if we could help it. She said some corporate cultures view a woman wearing pants as "more casually" dressed. So the women should wear suit skirts, not a pants suit. And stockings. Never a bare leg. (She said this while wearing pants.)

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1284839248' post='2174311']
right Chi. I was focusing on one's clothing symbolizing the fundamental difference in roles between men and women. Modesty is important too but I think it is a different issue and doesnt solve the debate of men wearing pants and women wearing dresses.
[/quote]

Speaking of Caravaggio, kafka, what is your view of his depiction of this real life boy, a boy he was "intimate with" as was common among Italian painters of that time period. I don't want to even mention what I've read about Sicilian miners working in mines with young Sicilian boys. Clothing wasn't an issue, representing work or station in life, since according to what I read, they all worked naked.

Wiki link: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravaggio"]My link[/url] (and look at the eyes on that Caravaggio, don't tell me that man didn't have rage in him - very intense eyes)

[quote]Caravaggio trained as a painter in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan"]Milan[/url] under a master who had himself trained under [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titian"]Titian[/url]. In his early twenties Caravaggio moved to Rome where, during the late 16th and early 17th centuries, many huge new churches and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzi"]palazzi[/url] were being built and paintings were needed to fill them. During the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation"]Counter-Reformation[/url] the Roman Catholic Church searched for [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_art"]religious art[/url] with which to counter the threat of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism"]Protestantism[/url][/quote]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Caravaggio_-_Fanciullo_con_canestro_di_frutta.jpg/250px-Caravaggio_-_Fanciullo_con_canestro_di_frutta.jpg[/img]

[missionseeker]

...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1284839671' post='2174313']
You're wrong.

The Church teaches that sex is holy.

The life of a married person demands heroic virtue and sacrifice. Picking up after children, discharging the marriage debt to one's spouse and performing all the other duties of married life is saintly.
[/quote]
Amen. I believe I've posted this before, but this is a good article on [url="http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/ron/ron_14domesticmonastery.html"]"The Domestic Monastery"[/url]. Being a Godly wife and mother means putting myself last, and responding to them and their needs first, and it certainly isn't easy. Especially not when both kids are sick with colds, or one wakes up at 5.00 hungry for breakfast, or I'm sick and still have to make breakfast and not snap at my toddler, etc, etc.

[Wikitiki]

Married live, single live, and religious life can and should all be pathways to sainthood.

And modesty needs to be practiced, no matter what life God has chosen for you. I like skirts on me, and I feel some kind of fraternity with other ladies that wear skirts (because really no one else I know does, it's a sense of not being alone). But when I see a mother with twin hyperactive toddlers and a crying infant, patiently dealing with them in modest pants (and shirt, lol), I think that woman is indeed on her way to sainthood.

being on-topic is so much fun

[Archaeology cat]

Well said, Wiki

[Thy Geekdom Come]

To believe that marriage is evil is heresy. Marriage is a sacrament witnessed and blessed by Christ Himself, as well as a remedy of concupiscence, and therefore an aid in holiness. If you believe that marriage is evil because you believe sex is evil, then there is a dualist heresy afoot. Certainly, sexuality can be abused, but that doesn't make it evil. In any event, marriage is specifically meant to help keep people from abusing sexuality. When people practice illicit sexual acts in marriage, they mock the Eternally Good Creator of sexuality and the sacrament of marriage.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284838793' post='2174309']
I'm not sure the robed garments Mary is depicted in qualifies as a modern interpretation of a "dress." Jesus is depicted in robes too. In fact when I was in the Middle east I saw plenty of Arab men wearing those loose pull over robes. As I recall, they were always white robes too (not sure why).[/quote]

Most likely due to practical considerations. White reflects sunlight; dark colours (such as black) absorb it. Therefore, white robes are cooler in a sun-baked desert environment. Tight clothing (unless it is self-wicking like underarmor) will also be much hotter and less comfortable than something baggy that breaths.

[quote]So, why not depict Mary in a pair of tight blue jeans or in a two piece bikini? I think our conscience knows why but we wish not to admit it, and it has nothing to do with symbolizing her role as [i]mother[/i]. Plenty of modern mothers wear tight jeans. [/quote]

So do plenty of modern virgins?

It's an issue of modesty, yes, but also of setting her apart. Religious icons aren't typically depicted in modern dress unless they happened to be modern people themselves. When is the last time you saw a statue of the Buddha wearing jeans?

[kafka]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284868612' post='2174467']
Speaking of Caravaggio, kafka, what is your view of his depiction of this real life boy, a boy he was "intimate with" as was common among Italian painters of that time period. I don't want to even mention what I've read about Sicilian miners working in mines with young Sicilian boys. Clothing wasn't an issue, representing work or station in life, since according to what I read, they all worked naked.

Wiki link: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravaggio"]My link[/url] (and look at the eyes on that Caravaggio, don't tell me that man didn't have rage in him - very intense eyes)



[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Caravaggio_-_Fanciullo_con_canestro_di_frutta.jpg/250px-Caravaggio_-_Fanciullo_con_canestro_di_frutta.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I dont know how my user name and Caravaggio got stuck together in the same sentence. Since you are asking me?

I think the boy looks like an effeminate fop and the picture is an abomination. Some of those Renaissance painters lived severely immoral lives, as your post alludes too. They are not good examples. And I am not a fan of visual arts.

[Cherie]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1284924262' post='2174636']
It's an issue of modesty, yes, but also of setting her apart. Religious icons aren't typically depicted in modern dress unless they happened to be modern people themselves. When is the last time you saw a statue of the Buddha wearing jeans?
[/quote]

I think that's a good point that I never quite came up with myself. Thanks for posting it!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284836791' post='2174303']
The marital bed is not holy. It's Darwinian. Virginity is holy if pursued for virtue and sacrifice to God and Church. I want to point this out, because I picked up a book from the library over the summer. It was a compilation of Catholic essays. One essay in particular irked. Me Catholic woman in the United States complains [i]average[/i] married life is not recognized as saintly by the Catholic Church. That picking up your child's shoes thrown in the house, and have hot, grinding, sex should be regarded by the unenlightened hierarchy of the Church as saintly.

No, I call that just living as an average human.
[/quote]

Chi,

I'm going to expand upon what Lilllabett, Wiki, and the others said.

Even though the Church did proclaim at the Council of Trent that "virginity" was superior to marriage, it did not state that the celibate vocations were the only path to hoiliness. In fact, if you are familiar with Opus Dei - regardless of your opinion of them - the one thing that they have most contributed (IMHO) to the modern Catholic Church is that holiness and sainthood should be for [b]everyone[/b] - that means not just a monk living silent vows, but also the average human.