Pants Vs. Skirts For Women ...

[fides' Jack]

Seriously, when you look back far enough into history, you'll find that there has always been immodesty in dress. While cultures can change this somewhat, what is immodest in one time is immodest in every time. Immodesty is sinful, and a sin will always be a sin. As for where to draw that line, I'm not the one to say, but I'm sure that God appreciates any extra effort (which shows a higher degree of virtue).

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284689914' post='2173978']
I'm not for men going back to wearing skirts for reasons of gender equality. However, what I would not be sadden to see return in vogue, are those long clothing Catholic Priest used to wear more frequently. I can't remember their name. But they resemble the clothing Chinese men once wore. The person that portrays Ip Man (a teacher of Bruce Lee) in the new movie about this Wing Chun master, wears that similar style of outfit.
[/quote]

Are you talking about cassocks?

[missionseeker]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1284654904' post='2173805']


The main thing I started to notice during this time was that men in public are much, much more respectful of me as a woman when I am wearing a modest skirt than when I would have on a pair of jeans, which after countless experiences really made me take the issue to prayer about what I should be wearing as a Catholic woman in public.




[/quote]


Strange. I've always noticed that I'm much more likely to be hit on (more) if I am wearing a skirt.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1284673377' post='2173893']
My own personal standards of modesty might not be perfect, but under very few circumstances am I causing temptation to men. If I'm being whistled at, or looked over (you know, the up-and-down once over)...I'm likely wearing a skirt. Pants + flats doesn't get nearly as much attention as skirt + heels.
[/quote]
And sometimes it doesn't matter what you're wearing (says the person who was whistled at whilst 8 months pregnant and wearing maternity trousers)

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284680955' post='2173944']
Although I know having the proper accent is still important to at least some people in the UK, most people in the U.S. cannot distinguish between the various UK accents. They all sound "British" to us--from cockney to Prince Charles (although I confess, I can't understand a word Prince Charles says, but doubt that I am missing anything anyway--that's just me. I love the Queen--obviously--but I strongly dislike Charles.) I have begun to be able to discern a Scottish accent, but could not distinguishe a Highlander from a denizen of Glasgow versus Edinburgh, although, apparently to natives of those two cities, the difference is obvious. I love Irish accents, but I'm not sure I could pick one out if confronted with a group of different accents from that part of the world. I have even, on occasion made a fool of myself for not distinguishing an Australian versus New Zealand versus South African versus English accent. I have taken a lot of cruises with Brits, and have visited the UK many times, so I have had many opportunities to make an idiot out of myself.

The message to people from the UK and other parts of the former and current Commonwealth--your accent, however it is viewed in the UK, will likely be viewed as attractive in the U.S., even if you were born within the sound of the Bow Bells.

As for Scousers, four of the most wealthy and well-known men in the world were Scousers. Perhaps I would notice if I lived in the UK, but as I said above, with a few small exceptions, people in the U.S. are almost totally unaware of the variety of UK accents, and that in the UK, your specific accent sends a strong message about you (positive or negative).
[/quote]
Edinburgh & Glasgow accents are quite different. I wouldn't have realised that until living over here, though, and I don't know about other Scottish regions.

I do love The Beatles, though Ringo lost some of his Dingle Scouse accent (the Scouse accent is thicker in certain areas - the Dingle is one of them). So turn his accent up a bit, and you've got the accent for the Dingle/Toxteth, where I used to live. My parents couldn't understand them at first. The Scouse accent isn't quite as pronounced where I am now.

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1284693130' post='2173989']
Are you talking about cassocks?
[/quote]

Yep, that's it. Thanks. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock"]My link[/url]

I think I agree with you - to an extent - about immodest dress today and in the past.

I'm not sure my post was meant to condemn tight jeans and so forth. However, with respects to the Muslim women in say... Dubai from that of Catholic women in L.A. and the difference in how the two dress (to Mass or Mosque even), one can't help but notice an irony as it concerns the [i]received [/i]image and model in the iconic Catholic Virgin Mary.

Being corrupted and no saint lust has a string hold on me. I like seeing good looking women in tight jeans or revealing clothing. But understand, I don't look upon them with innocent eyes as say... the pre-Colombian Tupi Indian males might have upon the near naked bodies of their Tupi women. Same goes for the bare breasted Muslim Afar tribe in Ethiopia. But neither are contemporary tight, female jeans, meant to inspire or arouse asexual feelings in the opposite sex.

If indeed Jesus or the Virgin Mary are [i]models [/i]for Christians, certain questions we ask ourselves must necessarily logically follow. There is no escaping that, however often we wish it away.

For example, if it is morally Okay in a contemporary pornographic culture, to wear tight jeans, mini-skirts, or the Brazilian bikinis one might find on the predominantly Catholic beaches of Rio de Janeiro, why not then portray the Virgin Mary in similar dress? Why is she always depicted dressed similar to a Muslim woman in modern Dubia?

Originally Adam and Eve (the fictional tale) were naked. However, innocence protects one from knowledge of lust and so forth. When they ate from the tree of knowledge they came to know lust and felt ashamed of their unclothed bodies.

Nakedness is sometimes differentiated from nudity. Regardless, nakedness is not in and of itself immoral nor evolves lust. Jesus was born naked and supposedly died naked on the cross (meaning his male genitals were exposed to the crowds). From my understanding artistic renditions added the loin cloth around him on the crucifix. For me this nakedness of the God-man is telling. Telling about something I'm not 100% I've figured out.






At any rate, I confess that I don't want to see the beaches of Rio de Janeiro add clothing, nor do I want to see women go back to wearing long dresses that reach their ankles.

But even with that said, I'm not a fan of certain architectural style of clothing today. The "nikko" wear of Japan on women or girls is fine to me. Some of the short, tight, shorts, and other clothing I see American girls and women wearing I don't really like. Not because of immodesty but because I think some of the clothing just lacks a sexy, attractive, style. Some of the tango dresses women tango dancers wear are a example of what I mean by a style that can be sexy AND attractive looking. But that's just my opinion.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284731429' post='2174059']
Yep, that's it. Thanks. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock"]My link[/url]
For example, if it is morally Okay in a contemporary pornographic culture, to wear tight jeans, mini-skirts, or the Brazilian bikinis one might find on the predominantly Catholic beaches of Rio de Janeiro, why not then portray the Virgin Mary in similar dress? Why is she always depicted dressed similar to a Muslim woman in modern Dubia?
[/quote]
Living in a pornographic culture shouldn't lower our standards. And culturally "Catholic" doesn't necessarily mean moral. All sorts of immorality goes on in countries historically and culturally "Catholic."

In her life on earth, Mary probably would have dressed more like women in Muslim countries than standard modern Western dress. It's highly doubtful the Blessed Virgin would publicly flaunt her body in a string bikini or such.

Practicing modesty in dress in behavior is an important virtue, but some people also get too obsessed or carried away with it.

[loveletslive]

[quote name='Fragments' timestamp='1284673954' post='2173900']
Epic post.

Just thought I'd say. Wore skirt and flats, had to walk a mile to work and a mile back for six weeks.
Probably 4-5 whistles a day from various people.

Whip out your rosary.

0.

:D
[/quote]

THIS THIS THIS! i've never really understood when people on phatmass rail on and on about skirts being more modest. skirts show off your assets way more than pants and are usually worn with heels which elongates your legs and yadda yadda more sexy. maybe in their mind a skirt is mu-mu like or something michelle duggar wears...but modern women who are at least somewhat fashionable don't wear shapeless, long, skirts. it just looks messy.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1284653265' post='2173796']
For myself, I used to be all about trying to only wear skirts. It was after I left the convent, (and a little bit from before I entered) and there were a lot of retreat masters who would give retreats, and a few of them were of the mindset that women should really go back to skirts. Granted, I do think they're more feminine, and honestly, I prefer to wear them when I can. But I thought, "I want to look like one of those great, homey, housewife skirt-wearers who have the perfect family!"

I tried to wear them all the time and was getting very anxious trying to keep wearing them (especially in the winter, which is when I usually gave in to wearing pants) and my husband noticed it and was like, "What are you trying to do?!" For him, he actually likes it when I'm all comfy in a pair of jeans. He has absolutely no preference for me to wear skirts or dresses, so this "idea" I had in my head wasn't coming from him, it was coming from me [i]trying to be something I'm not. [/i]

I don't like how many people are making it a huge moral issue, because I don't believe it is. As others have mentioned, I don't think there is anything terribly immodest about women wearing pants, especially because it has become the norm. Someone pointed out in one of the blogs that there have been a few "fashion" styles that were originally worn by men, but that they were adapted and [i]made for women.[/i] It's not like all women who wear pants are masculine, because try to put a pair of women's slacks on a man --- yeah, they're [i]made[/i] for women, and they're tailored to fit us. I look at some fashion pictures of women in some great styles and there's no way you could look at them and think, "Gosh, she looks so masculine in those slacks." Granted, sometimes they DO -- but I think there are a vast number of styles that really accentuate the feminine, and they're [i]slacks[/i]. Whoa, imagine that!

Thanks for the discussion, everyone - I appreciate it!!!
[/quote]

Don't have time to read the whole topic .. but I agree with Cherie here .. and also about pants being more practical. I ride the train and walk a lot most days, and pants are just so much easier to get around in (and I think there's something to be said about women in the past not going out as much like this on their own, etc. so skirts/dresses maybe didn't get in the way with all of this as much) Granted I love wearing long skirts when I can. But yeah, I think both can be modest, and don't think this is that big of a deal. Also I notice, sometimes in long skirts I feel like I get more attention from people than in just wearing a regular (loose fitting .. I always wear them that way .. could care less about fashions) pairs of cords or something. So anyway, that's my two cents.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

At least to me, one of the most beautiful national costumes is the shalwar qameez, the national dress of Pakistan, worn by both men and women, which consists of a very long tunic worn over a pair of pants (which can differ in style). I have never seen a woman or man for whom this dress was not both modest and flattering. I have seen the shalwar qameeze worn as very simple, practical, everyday wear, and also as gorgeous, much more elaborate dress for formal occasions. Somehow the shalwar qameeze seems to combine the flattering nature of a dress (at least for women), with the practical side of pants. I also find the national costume looks just as good on men as it does on women. And, it looks very comfortable.

I would feel like a "poser" if I wore this dress, but I have often thought that the Pakistani shalwar qameeze combined "the best of both worlds."

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284689914' post='2173978']
This is similar to the colors pink and blue before the end of WWI. It used to be here in the united States that blue was the color for girls and pink was the color for boys. Marketing campaigns changed that.
[/quote]

Really?!! I've never come across that before - that's very interesting!! I can see how blues would have been the color for girls, since blues were popular for women during most of the 19th century, but pink for guys?! Wow. Guess it is true that you learn something every day!

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1284659440' post='2173841']
Theres your problem, youre in the wrong country!! Im sure theres a handsome, bearded, kilt wearing, Sean Connery type Scotsman out there for you. If God doesnt want me waring a skirt full time in a convent Id be very fine with a husband who does, beard is optional. So if you find that Sean Connery type let me know if he knows any young men like this.
[img]http://www.lindaclifford.com/Images/CorkGreatKiltA.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Guy's got good taste. A #2A in .308. And wool. Wool is good. Cotton kills.

~Sternhauser

Edited September 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284680955' post='2173944']
on occasion made a fool of myself for not distinguishing an Australian versus New Zealand
[/quote]

How could you confuse G'day mayt, how are yus with Brickfest bitwin sex ind siven?

[Sarah147]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1284641889' post='2173759']
Seems like every Catholic blog I know has brought up the topic this week!

I thought I'd try to get the opinions of Phatmassers on this one.

Here are some of the blogs in which it has been mentioned, in case you'd like to read up on what's been going on; there are many others, and even different posts from the same blog, but each one has a few links to other blogs, so I didn't provide [i]all[/i] of them.

[url="http://www.catholicity.com/message/2010-07-30.html"]http://www.catholici...2010-07-30.html[/url]
[url="http://markshea.blogspot.com/2010/09/go-simcha.html"]http://markshea.blog.../go-simcha.html[/url]
[url="http://simchafisher.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/pants-a-manifesto-2/"]http://simchafisher....-a-manifesto-2/[/url]
[url="http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/ninnies-tyrants-and-those-damned-pants.html"]http://www.thecathol...mned-pants.html[/url]
[url="http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2010/09/act-of-sartorial-seduction.html"]http://redcardigan.b...-seduction.html[/url]
[url="http://www.colleenhammond.com/uncategorized/a-teen-tells-her-story-mission-modesty-part-2/"]http://www.colleenha...modesty-part-2/[/url]

I would love to hear your opinions on this one
[/quote]

I prefer wearing skirts and dresses. It took some time to get used to them, but now I love them. I rarely wear pants, but it happens if I'm in my PJ's, riding a bike, heavy work, etc. I think skirts/dresses are more chaste, pure, feminine, and respectful. I look at the outline of pants on women, and it's just too revealing and fitting of the body. I don't like it at all. And I say that even of the baggier, work type pants, which I opt for when need be. There is something about the stitching and lines that draws attention to certain areas, especially for men that are very visual. It just bothers me, women wearing pants. But anyway, I'm trying not to get too scrupulous about this. It's better than short-shorts or short skirts.

[kafka]

Well here is what I have to say. The whole pants vs. dresses has nothing to do with modesty. I think people are missing the point. It is not intrinsically evil for a woman to wear pants or any sort of clothing. The sinfulness of a woman or man wearing immodest apparel would fall to the intention or circumstance (consequences in moral theology) of that person wearing that particular clothing in order for the decison or act to be immoral or sinful and it would have to be severly or substantially immodest in the intention or the effect of consequence to constitute a mortal sin. For example a woman makes a knowing choice (which is an intention) to wear severely immodest clothing in order to seduce a man to have sex with her..

Clothing expresses one's role in the Church and in society. Soldiers wear uniforms fitting for their role. Priest wears collars as an expression of their office. Nuns wear the dress and veil. The reason women should generally wear dresses is to express that substantially different role given in God's plan in creation as opposed to that of a man. The essence of the issue is that of one's own role. It has nothing to do with modesty. Certain dresses can be just as immodest as pants. And it isnt intrinsically evil for a woman to wear a pair of pants anyway. So it is all an expression of role, just like the wearing a veil in Church. Saint Paul wasnt ignorant or mistaken when he commanded that. He understood the substantial difference in roles between men and women. So I think woman should wear dresses in general with exceptions of course to express their feminity, and their God-given role in the Church and in the world, in the family, in society. Perhaps that is why Saint Pio would not hear those women's confessions. I doubt seriously doubt he had modesty in his mind. And this is why Mary I think still wears a dress when she appears on earth to modern men and women as an example of her role par exellance.

Edited September 18, 2010 by kafka

[cmotherofpirl]

Skirts are fine when I am sitting around being ornamental in the summer, but the rest of the time they are just not practical. They also look stupid with tenners.