Pants Vs. Skirts For Women ...

[Wikitiki]

...I still like skirts.

[/continuously brilliant opinion]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Wikitiki' timestamp='1284668951' post='2173869']
...I still like skirts.

[/continuously brilliant opinion]
[/quote]
I like them on other people, and when I have nothing to do but sit and look pretty I wear them. But they would NOT have been useful today crawling thru poison ivy, standing high on a ladder picking apples, or chasing down a mudcovered puppy in the blowing rain.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1284654904' post='2173805']
. I love Padre Pio, and when I learned that he wouldn't hear the confession of a woman in pants, or a woman in a shorter skirt, it really made me think about things.

[/quote]


Wow. That sure does make me think about "things" too. But not about wearing pants. About Padre Pio.
My guess is, if this is true, then its something that he had to be purified from before he got to Heaven.
Don't get me wrong. I love Padre Pio. He's amazing.
But denying people the Sacrament of God's mercy because of .. pants? That seems a little over the top to me ...
I mean, I don't think God cares what people are wearing when they come to Him for mercy ...

But what the heck do I know. I'm no Padre Pio, that's for sure.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1284669382' post='2173875']
Wow. That sure does make me think about "things" too. But not about wearing pants. About Padre Pio.
My guess is, if this is true, then its something that he had to be purified from before he got to Heaven.
Don't get me wrong. I love Padre Pio. He's amazing.
But denying people the Sacrament of God's mercy because of .. pants? That seems a little over the top to me ...
I mean, I don't think God cares what people are wearing when they come to Him for mercy ...

But what the heck do I know. I'm no Padre Pio, that's for sure.
[/quote]
I think you have to think about his culture.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1284669467' post='2173877']
I think you have to think about his culture.
[/quote]


Was it a sin for women to wear pants in his culture?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1284669653' post='2173878']
Was it a sin for women to wear pants in his culture?
[/quote]

You cannot judge him by today's standards [ or lack of them].
Padre Pio died in 1968 in Italy, which is centuries ago in terms of clothing. Back then even in the US, most women wore dresses if they left the house - work, church, and school. Hemlines had started to creep up, but rarely did you see ordinary women in any short skirts. It Italy the culture was way more traditional than here, so pants would have been a rare thing, and were considered immodest.

[MithLuin]

It was a sin for women to dress in men's clothing during the Middle Ages, and was one of the few accusations against St. Joan of Arc that 'stuck' at her trial. (They accused her of a whole slew of outrageous things, but only a few turned out to have any truth to them, so they kept harping on those. One was a comment she may have made about the pope, one was her voices...and of course, dressing as a man.) It's also a plot point in Robert Lewis Stevenson's [i]The Black Arrow[/i], which takes place during the War of the Roses.

Thus, if in Padre Pio's culture (rural Italy, 1940s) only men wore pants and a woman would be viewed as a cross-dresser if she donned them, then, yes...he'd have grounds for asking her to change.



Basically, I really don't care. I think people should dress modestly. That goes for men and women.

Skirts and pants have their own unique issues when it comes to modesty. Wrap skirts notoriously fall open, revealing [i]way[/i] more of your leg than you may have intended to. Some skirts ride up dangerously when you sit down. And of course....there is the famous image of Marilyn Monroe trying to hold down her skirt from being blown up by an air vent. No matter how long it is, it isn't modest when the hemline is in your face. Pants can be too tight, resulting in a camel toe that is hardly modest or attractive. In most cases, spandex should not be your outermost layer of clothing. In general, pants reveal more of the movement of the legs, which is important for dancers, but also often a less modest choice.

Practically speaking, many skirts and dresses are quite comfortable. It's only the tailored ones that restrict movement. I remember wearing a dress to work on a day I took a field trip with my middle school students (the only time I've ever taught middle school!) We were visiting a rock/mineral collection (mini-museum) at the local college. Obviously, the people who worked there usually wore pants. I didn't think anything of it, till they instructed the kids to sit down on the floor and said something like 'your teacher can't, since she's in a dress...' And I was like...ummm, work dress? and sat down anyway. So, certainly, some people consider skirts and dresses to just be for 'dress up' and wouldn't wear them in a situation where they can get dirty. That's fine...but it doesn't mean you [i]can't[/i] wear them in those situations. My sister hiked several mountain trails with me this summer...in habit.

The practical advantages of pants are obvious to me. They don't usually move out of place to surprise you be revealing something you didn't mean to. Not always - low slung pants reveal a butt crack when you sit down. Also, pockets. POCKETS. I'm not saying all pants have pockets or that no skirts/dresses do...but it is easier to find pants with pockets. And, for those who are not skinny...pants take care of any chafing issues, while walking around for any length of time in a skirt would eventually be rather painful. (This was mentioned in one of the comments on a blog post in a quite memorable analogy!) And weather-wise...yes, I wore a skirt to school for 12 years (Catholic school uniform), but that doesn't mean I want to hike through the snow in one.

Most women have a pretty good idea what styles of clothing look flattering on them and can avoid looks that just don't work. If they care to. 'Looking feminine' isn't just about the clothing, but yes, the clothing plays a role, certainly.

My own personal standards of modesty might not be perfect, but under very few circumstances am I causing temptation to men. If I'm being whistled at, or looked over (you know, the up-and-down once over)...I'm likely wearing a skirt. Pants + flats doesn't get nearly as much attention as skirt + heels.

Edited September 16, 2010 by MithLuin

[Fragments]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1284673377' post='2173893']

My own personal standards of modesty might not be perfect, but under very few circumstances am I causing temptation to men. If I'm being whistled at, or looked over (you know, the up-and-down once over)...I'm likely wearing a skirt. Pants + flats doesn't get nearly as much attention as skirt + heels.
[/quote]

Epic post.

Just thought I'd say. Wore skirt and flats, had to walk a mile to work and a mile back for six weeks.
Probably 4-5 whistles a day from various people.

Whip out your rosary.

0.

:D

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1284673377' post='2173893']
In most cases, spandex should not be your outermost layer of clothing.
[/quote]




that goes for men, too.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1284670735' post='2173882']
You cannot judge him by today's standards [ or lack of them].
Padre Pio died in 1968 in Italy, which is centuries ago in terms of clothing. Back then even in the US, most women wore dresses if they left the house - work, church, and school. Hemlines had started to creep up, but rarely did you see ordinary women in any short skirts. It Italy the culture was way more traditional than here, so pants would have been a rare thing, and were considered immodest.
[/quote]

hmm... Good thoughts, but still not enough for me to dismiss his take on modesty. I'm not sure I can agree that the 1960's were "centuries ago in terms of clothing." Yes, several of the fashions of what you saw recurring in the 1960's had already been introduced in the 1920's and 1930's - sleeveless tops, miniskirts, some plunged necklines, open backs in evening wear - but these are back in style today. I think it's kinda funny how fashion tends to be cyclical. Except for the hoop skirt - let's hope that one doesn't come back!!

Just a few other things to keep in mind: women came from all over (and from different economic and social levels) to see him, so it wasn't just provincial Italian women he was seeing. Plus, capri pants were actually introduced, and first gained popularity, in Italy after WWII. Sure, just as in the US, dresses were still more popular in Italy during his time, but it's not like pants or capris would have been unheard of (or, I guess, unseen). For your point about rarely seeing "ordinary women in any short skirts", I am not sure what we could use to qualify that (for example, 1940's hemlines were often shorter than 1950's), but Padre Pio at least was bothered enough by seeing women, "ordinary" or otherwise, in various hem-lengths to set a guideline of 8" below the knee. He also didn't want to see women in tight skirts, so he must have seen a number of those, too, and the tighter skirts tend to be much shorter (I certainly couldn't walk in a long, tight skirt!).

Anyway, just my rambled thoughts. Thanks for making this an interesting discussion!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1284661244' post='2173848']
You might change your mind about the accent if you were surrounded by Scousers.
[/quote]

Although I know having the proper accent is still important to at least some people in the UK, most people in the U.S. cannot distinguish between the various UK accents. They all sound "British" to us--from cockney to Prince Charles (although I confess, I can't understand a word Prince Charles says, but doubt that I am missing anything anyway--that's just me. I love the Queen--obviously--but I strongly dislike Charles.) I have begun to be able to discern a Scottish accent, but could not distinguishe a Highlander from a denizen of Glasgow versus Edinburgh, although, apparently to natives of those two cities, the difference is obvious. I love Irish accents, but I'm not sure I could pick one out if confronted with a group of different accents from that part of the world. I have even, on occasion made a fool of myself for not distinguishing an Australian versus New Zealand versus South African versus English accent. I have taken a lot of cruises with Brits, and have visited the UK many times, so I have had many opportunities to make an idiot out of myself.

The message to people from the UK and other parts of the former and current Commonwealth--your accent, however it is viewed in the UK, will likely be viewed as attractive in the U.S., even if you were born within the sound of the Bow Bells.

As for Scousers, four of the most wealthy and well-known men in the world were Scousers. Perhaps I would notice if I lived in the UK, but as I said above, with a few small exceptions, people in the U.S. are almost totally unaware of the variety of UK accents, and that in the UK, your specific accent sends a strong message about you (positive or negative).

Edited September 16, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[MarieLynn]

As for me, I don't own a skirt or a dress, apart from a Ball Gown, and I surely will not be wearing that unless to a very swanky occasion.

I work in hospital scrubs, I love my jeans in my 'off time', and I wear 'dress' trousers and a top or jacket when I go out.

I feel it is a personal taste thing, and it just depends on what each one prefers.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1284669382' post='2173875']
Wow. That sure does make me think about "things" too. But not about wearing pants. About Padre Pio.
My guess is, if this is true, then its something that he had to be purified from before he got to Heaven.
Don't get me wrong. I love Padre Pio. He's amazing.
But denying people the Sacrament of God's mercy because of .. pants? That seems a little over the top to me ...
I mean, I don't think God cares what people are wearing when they come to Him for mercy ...

But what the heck do I know. I'm no Padre Pio, that's for sure.
[/quote]

I agree 100%.

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1284641889' post='2173759']
I would love to hear your opinions on this one
[/quote]

I haven't looked at all those blogs. But here's my take:

Occasionally I read military history, and doing so I stumbled across something a few years ago. I it appears that trousers were adopted in the Western Europe from the nomadic tribesmen of the East, namely the Scythians.

Skirts were traditionally worn by men, as well as robes (Jesus) or togas (Romans and Greeks I believe).

This is similar to the colors pink and blue before the end of WWI. It used to be here in the united States that blue was the color for girls and pink was the color for boys. Marketing campaigns changed that. Today, however, men are fashionably reclaiming the color pink in silk ties and silk shirts worn with suits.





In my opinion pants are fine for women (though it goes against the old saying, "Who wears the pants in the house"), however, they are generally not architecturally designed for [b]modesty[/b].

You know... as short ago as the 1800's, Southern European women did not dress all that differently from the scarfs wearing Muslim women of today. The burqa, however, is a form of dress Christian women used to wear during the first century or so after the death of Jesus. Muslim nations like Afghanistan - being what Fernand Braudel called "stable societies" - don't have fashion [b]trends[/b]. In stable societies art and fashion remain static in canonized codes (e.g., much of ancient Egyptian paintings for example). The Western European world has for a very long time been a world of vibrant cultural adaptations and evolutions. This was brought to the Americas.

As concerns the Virgin Mary as a received image and model, I would say the Islamic world of women, represents that image and model better. I see a lot of immigrant Muslim women on my university campus from the Eastern world. They usually wear blue jeans, this is true, but they have their heads and necks fashionably covered with scarfs. They almost always congregate together. There is little reason for me to presume they are loosing their faith.


(As a side bar, for cultural context to this gender issue, note that Muslim women are not allowed to marry infidel men, but Muslim men can marry infidel women. Muslim women also can not marry more than one man, whereas Muslim men can take up to for wives I believe)


I'm not for men going back to wearing skirts for reasons of gender equality. However, what I would not be sadden to see return in vogue, are those long clothing Catholic Priest used to wear more frequently. I can't remember their name. But they resemble the clothing Chinese men once wore. The person that portrays Ip Man (a teacher of Bruce Lee) in the new movie about this Wing Chun master, wears that similar style of outfit.

[Chi Zhuzi]

It's that Catholic Priest clothing, that is not a robe, but looks very similar to this outfit the Ip Man character wears in this trailer: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=959h-GXfeNc"]Ip Man [/url]