Dialoguing With Agnostic Students

[Mr.Cat]

[b]Raphael[/b], I think you might be reading too much into my replies or misunderstanding, or perhaps I have.

I am merely offering a different perspective, if you disagree you are welcome to. Ziggamafu makes some valid observations.

It just seems to me you are trying to prove something that you ultimately can't prove, if your not trying to then my concern isn't relevant to you. In my humble opinion you need to show your students that while you can't prove or justify faith, there is demonstrable reasons that is sufficient for faith, that Catholicism is not divorced from reason or reality. We all live with uncertainty and doubt of some kind concerning our faith, to pretend it doesn't exist is dishonest and unhealthy. Empiricism, skepticism, doubt, or uncertainty isn't the enemy of faith; [i]at least I don't think it has to be.[/i] Honestly the people who are willing to admit both their strengths and their weaknesses, seem more real to me.

There was a devote Priest who very humbly told me that he didn't know and in fact he was uncertain, but he believed and practiced his faith, and consequentially his ministry. He shared his reflections and his experiences that helped encourage and comfort his faith. It's men like this that I see Catholicism in, their doing the best they can.

If that is what you are doing, presenting the heart of the Church on these matters for their consideration, you are doing well. You are correct, I suspected you instigated the matter somehow, because of how this was presented. My suspicion was incorrect it appears. I have always been one for "[i]Preach the gospel at all times, use words if necessary.[/i]"

Edited September 18, 2010 by Mr Cat

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='Raphael' timestamp='1284820479' post='2174242']
Yes, faith is a gift, but it is my job to spread that gift as far as possible. I cannot give faith, but I can help remove obstacles in my students, whom God wills to be saved. I can do so by having a reasonable and charitable dialogue with them. It would be, quite frankly, a sort of calvinistic gnostic donatism for me to insist that I simply should not do this, but should wait for God to give them the gift. God offers the gift to all, but He offers through us, His instruments.
...

The difficulty is bringing down they empiricism and scientism. Empiricism is an inherently prideful, arrogant, and blind system of believe ("I'm so brilliant and my scientific instruments so perfect that if I can't prove something, it simply must not exist"). Our students today have also been brought up to believe in empiricism in their science classes, which is dreadful. They are oblivious to the fact that if something spiritual does exist, their instruments won't be able to prove it.
[/quote]

I totally agree that this worldview needs to be challenged, and it is wonderful that you as a teacher and someone who the students (I'm assuming) see as educated, reasonable, etc, are challenging them on it. I have a friend who has been almost ready to join the church for a long time but he can't get past his own arrogance in this area. He has actually told me all the details of the proof that he would need in order to accept the existence of God - God needs to do X and Y in front of at least one other non-believing person, and affirm at least the following statements, etc. etc. I don't even think my friend sees this as arrogant and he certainly doesn't understand why I think it is funny and sad.

[quote name='Mr Cat' timestamp='1284832671' post='2174285']
We all live with uncertainty and doubt of some kind concerning our faith, to pretend it doesn't exist is dishonest and unhealthy. Empiricism, skepticism, doubt, or uncertainty isn't the enemy of faith; [i]at least I don't think it has to be.[/i] Honestly the people who are willing to admit both their strengths and their weaknesses, seem more real to me.

There was a devote Priest who very humbly told me that he didn't know and in fact he was uncertain, but he believed and practiced his faith, and consequentially his ministry. He shared his reflections and his experiences that helped encourage and comfort his faith. It's men like this that I see Catholicism in, their doing the best they can.
[/quote]

Mr. Cat, this is interesting to me. I think certainty can also be a powerful witness. Before I was a Christian, the strong faith of my friends was something that really got me thinking. They didn't seem to be people who believed things blindly; they were smart, thoughtful, interesting people who were like me in most ways that mattered-- except for the part where they were totally confident in this idea that God loved them and knew their names. They didn't need to make a big deal about it or come up with 100 reasons why. It just WAS, for them.

[Theologian in Training]

If you are up on your physics and philosophy, Fr. Robert J. Spitzer just wrote an excellent book (I am still trying to get through) entitled: "New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy" From what I have read it is excellent! http://www.amazon.com/New-Proofs-Existence-God-Contributions/dp/0802863833/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284953673&sr=8-1