Desires Are Your Own, Or Are They His?

[In The Arms of The Lord]

Hello everyone. After reading a certain post, I thought these would be good experiences to share for those discerning. When you have such a strong desire and you are certain that it is His also, if this happend, how did you find out that it was not or was it rather confirmed that it is?

We receive signs and confirmations in many different ways; and yet we seem to be wondering about this even after these signs and confirmations. Is it not paying attention, or maybe wanting to hear or see something else, or maybe even having a desire so strong but there is a reluctance to act which may cause doubts also? Of course trust, willingness, and surrender is needed no matter what path we are discerning, and if they are not there we will not go much further. Often times while discerning we want to be so certain, but it doesn't happen this way; they are really acts of faith. When we love Jesus and desire His will, everything falls into place. Does anyone have anything to share?

[TeresaBenedicta]

I love St. Thomas.

ST II-II; q. 189, a. 10, ob. 1

[quote]The saying: "Try the spirits, if they be of God," applies to matters admitting of doubt whether the spirits be of God; thus those who are already in religion may doubt whether he who offers himself to religion be led by the spirit of God, or be moved by hypocrisy. Wherefore they must try the postulant whether he be moved by the divine spirit.[b] But for him who seeks to enter religion there can be no doubt but that the purpose of entering religion to which his heart has given birth is from the spirit of God, for it is His spirit "that leads" man "into the land of uprightness" (Psalm 142:10).[/b]

[i]Nor does this prove that it is not of God that some turn back;[/i] since not all that is of God is incorruptible: else corruptible creatures would not be of God, as the Manicheans hold, nor could some who have grace from God lose it, which is also heretical. But God's "counsel" whereby He makes even things corruptible and changeable, is imperishable according to Isaiah 46:10, "My counsel shall stand and all My will shall be done." Hence the purpose of entering religion needs not to be tried whether it be of God, because "it requires no further demonstration," as a gloss says on 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "Prove all things."[/quote]

I think it is very difficult and very rare that it is our own desires that lead us into religious life. Even for those who enter and consequently leave. The desire for religious life, I believe, was still planted in their hearts [i]by[/i] God. He had some purpose in leading them into religious life. Perhaps it was that they follow Him in such a way, but that they put forth obstacles to God's grace that would have allowed them to live it. That does happen. Or perhaps it was that God wanted them to give generously to Him by entering, but that it was not His will that they persevere. Rather, He desired that they marry. So it is that St. Thomas says, "And here again there is no room for doubt about the entrance to religion, since those who enter religion trust not to be able to stay by their own power, but by the assistance of the divine power."

See, the beautiful thing about religious life, is that in order to persevere, God must give the graces. There is [i]no way[/i] one can do it on their own, by their own power or effort.

No, I don't think there's any reason to deliberate about where these desires come from-- they are from God. Of course, also remember that St. Thomas is assuming, I believe, a sincere heart of a person and that they recognize that the end of religious life is Christian perfection. If one assumes a false end about religious life (it'll be good because I won't have to marry a hairy man, I wont' have to deal with the real world, etc), I think those are clear indications that it is not a [i]true[/i] desire for religious life. It is a desire to run away from something else. Even though God can and does draw good from false motives. But if one desires religious [i]in so far as it is truly religious life they desire[/i], there is no doubt about whence comes the inspiration.

Of course, that all being said, I know that I have my own rounds of doubting and fearing that it's [i]my[/i] will, not His. This is why I think it's important that we cling to a solid theology of vocations. In some ways, it makes discerning [b]A LOT[/b] easier because it turns us away from too much "naval gazing" and placing too much emphasis on 'feelings'. Some of both are necessary, but certainly not to excess, which I think does happen fairly often.

So that's my take on it.

Edited September 14, 2010 by TeresaBenedicta

[morostheos]

One of my consistent prayers has been "Lord, if what I'm doing is not your will, You need to make it abundantly clear to me." So far, He has. I've always been the type that needs a kick in the pants to make major life changes, and God has provided me with those too.

As an example, I'm almost certain I would not be entering pre-postulancy this week ( ) if I hadn't got Lyme disease and lost my job this spring. I had been discerning, but I wanted to stay at my job and that was keeping me from taking the next step in discerning my vocation. At the time, I kind of knew that, but I definitely was not ready to admit it to myself. In a very short amount of time, the decision became much easier because I had no option to stay where I was!

I have had many other experiences in life similar to that, either leading me towards or away from situations. Of course, I don't think that is really typical though. I think I have a particularly think skull and as such many times the only way God can speak to me and have me hear Him is by hitting me over the head!

To sum it up, I have asked God to be direct with me, and He has.

[vee]

For me it has been St Ignatius His Spiritual Exercises and Discernment of Spirits http://ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/ have been incredibly helpful. That site is just one example there are many others.

[Cherie]

[quote name='In The Arms of The Lord' timestamp='1284474815' post='2173014']
Hello everyone. After reading a certain post, I thought these would be good experiences to share for those discerning. When you have such a strong desire and you are certain that it is His also, if this happend, how did you find out that it was not or was it rather confirmed that it is?

We receive signs and confirmations in many different ways; and yet we seem to be wondering about this even after these signs and confirmations. Is it not paying attention, or maybe wanting to hear or see something else, or maybe even having a desire so strong but there is a reluctance to act which may cause doubts also? Of course trust, willingness, and surrender is needed no matter what path we are discerning, and if they are not there we will not go much further. Often times while discerning we want to be so certain, but it doesn't happen this way; they are really acts of faith. When we love Jesus and desire His will, everything falls into place. Does anyone have anything to share?
[/quote]

I come from the perspective of one who did not persevere in religious life.

My entering itself was certainly of God, and I had many confirmations that He wanted me there. I was there for five years, and I often thought, "Why would You have allowed that, Lord?" as most people who don't persevere leave in the first two years. However, my time in the convent shaped the person I am today. I honestly believe if I hadn't entered religious life when I did, I would have ended up losing my soul. God wanted me to be there for His reasons - and it was Him who guided me there. I can look back and see all the wonderful experiences I had and all the beautiful things I learned there, that I never would have learned anywhere else. God has been very good to me, and I am truly grateful for the time I spent in the convent. I needed it for my own spiritual growth, and I'm humbled, amazed, and grateful that God went to such lengths to be sure I received it! Not only that, but if I hadn't been there for the length of time I had, the timing would have been off, and I never would have met my husband. In the mystery of God's Plan and Providence, He willed that I be married; but that I spend time in the convent, first.

I certainly desired religious life - and God used that to bring me to the convent. But He started to make clear to me that I wasn't meant to stay there -- little things, and big things -- uneasiness about being there, a lack of peace, a firm knowledge that [i]something[/i] wasn't right. I thought it was myself, and I blamed myself. I thought I wasn't doing things right, or that there was something I could do to "fix" it. At that point, it [i]was[/i] my own desires that were getting in the way of God's will.

So how did I know? Honestly, it took a while. But then I started to get restless and realize that my thinking was not the best. I was giving excuses as to why I should [i]stay,[/i] and none of them were very healthy. It was all through prayer, and self-knowledge gained through God's grace.

I will echo what you've said, though: When we love Jesus and desire His Will, everything falls into place. I can't really describe [i]exactly[/i] how everything happened in my case, because much of it was the fact that it was God letting everything happen for His reasons--things really just "fell into place" in a way. The important thing is to keep our eyes on Him - when I stopped worrying about everything and took a good hard look at what He wanted, everything fell into place. Much like TeresaBenedicta said -- often we can get caught up in 'navel gazing' and our own feelings. An objective look at our state of mind helps. Everyone has doubts, and everyone has desires. But God will make known His will to you in whatever way He deems necessary for you, personally. Our part is to pray, hope, and don't worry -- like St. Pio says -- and stay faithful to Him.

Just my two cents, anyway.

[OnlySunshine]

For me, I eventually discovered that God was not calling me to religious life. I believed for almost 3 years that God was calling me, in spite of all the Sisters I talked to saying they didn't sense a true vocation. I believed it was because I was not called to their order, but I got the same reaction from nearly all the communities I talked to. And I started to discern an anxiety and nervousness that I would feel whenever I was at a convent for a "Come and See." The last one I went on went pretty well since I participated in everything, but there was something within me that said even though I could do the work, I don't see myself living here. I felt restless at night while trying to sleep. After I had a talk with the Vocational Director, it was evident that I was not called there. I nearly gave up on discerning right then because all my desires were not being confirmed. I remember crying at the airport as I was waiting for my plane to take me home. It wasn't angry crying like, "Why is this happening to me?" It was more somber and sorrowful. It felt like a part of me was ending and a new journey was about to begin. Since then, I have not discerned with any other communities, although I have sent letters to a few asking their opinions on the matter. I officially ended my discernment last month in favor of discerning marriage. It's funny. Last year, I had the premonition that God was going to ask something of me and I felt like I was called to marriage instead of religious life, but I brushed it aside thinking I was being tempted. I remember it happened when I was on retreat with my young adult group, and I spoke to my small group about it. They all told me I should stay open to marriage. It was kind of prophetic, in a way. Now, I'm at peace. I firmly believe that I am not called to religious life and I will not discern again, except with Third Order Dominicans to become a tertiary.

[Sarah147]

Interesting what you mentioned. I never slept better in my life than I did at my last retreat at a convent. It wasn't a try-out, just a retreat for two weeks.

I don't think we can know for sure whether the desire is coming from ourselves or from God, except if you come to discern correctly that you aren't called. If someone ends up faithfully living out the life of a religious, it still could have been that their aim and reasons were wrong in entering, but underneath it, even unrecognizable to themself, there was some true desire to live the life out of love for Jesus. God can bring good out of everything, God can change our motives; we may need more maturing and purifying. We can be confused about what exactly it is we desire, and even underneath wrong motives, the motive to love could be there, but we didn't understand why we wanted the life to begin with. I suppose, even with mixed or wrong motives, our faithfulness to approach the life can be a pleasing prayer to God, and He could give us the gift, and purify our will.

I'm very careful to ever say someone doesn't or didn't have a vocation, and I don't like hearing people judge that. We don't know peoples hearts, only God does. It could very well be that they need more time to blossom, purify and mature. People have to be willing to change and grow. I think more often it isn't that they don't or won't have a vocation, but that they aren't fully willing to do all that the life demands, and that just calls for more humility and time to grow in submition and love.

Fr. Manelli FI, in his book, "Come Follow Me," he says that we can pray for the gift of a vocation, that people without one can receive the gift. And that we need to pray to keep it, protect our life so we don't lose it, and entrust it to Holy Mary.

[AccountDeleted]

It is interesting to me that in other cultures and religions, there is a different approach to serving God. I am not saying that either way is preferable, just interesting.

In some Eastern religions, it is expected that a person will go through different stages in their life which can include being a career person, a 'householder' (having a family) and then later in life, perhaps even enter a 'monastery' (for Buddhists) or an 'ashram' (for Hindus) to dedicate one's life to God (depending on responsibilities and circumstances of course). Dedicating oneself to God is not an either/or situation but more of a natural part of the life of a human being.

There probably isn't any one right or wrong way to live this life, as others have stated. Some may be called to religious life and then leave to get married and have a family. Or someone may enter later in life if their spouse dies or something else happens. One of the reasons that final vows are not taken for a very long time, is to allow discernment to continue throughout intitial formation. I don't think it is good after entrance to constantly question whether one is called because that opens the door to temptation, but if it does become apparent that a person is simply unable to live the life after years of trying (for whatever reason), then I think it is good to take the view of CherieMadame, that God has given a beautiful gift to help prepare that person for what is to come later, and for the good of their soul.

edited for *sigh* typos


And reading this again I see that I didn't address the OP at all!

How do I know God's will?

I just do, but I don't always want to know it when it isn't what I want to do, so I ask for signs and inspirations etc... which He rightly ignores.

And then I still know what He is asking of me.

I don't rely a lot on other people to tell me what I already know in my heart. I do take advice for discernment, and spiritual directors have helped me a lot with practical things, but always, in my heart, I know what He is asking. He is very patient with me.

Edited September 15, 2010 by nunsense

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284508567' post='2173249']
I don't rely a lot on other people to tell me what I already know in my heart. I do take advice for discernment, and spiritual directors have helped me a lot with practical things, but always, in my heart, I know what He is asking. He is very patient with me.
[/quote]

nunsense wisdom. thank you very much for telling this.

My own desires die a natural death actually. God just takes our own desires out of our way, and He keeps us on the track.

One time, I called the Society of Saint Paul. They're a good order. I think I would excel in communication apostolate, so I called them and asked for more information. I was in highschool that time. But when they call me, I couldn't answer the phone because they call me during class hours. In our high school, one is not allowed to bring out of your pockets cellphones lest you get reprimanded. This is a long story, I just tried to make it short. Finally when I had the chance to answer the phone, the desire no longer burns. The desire already died. Our desires die, His desire lasts.

Another experience, I called a monastery and really did my best to make everything ready. Really. The only problem is a plane ticket and permission from my father. I called the vocation director, asked for directions and prayers. It was really well-prepared (according to my perception ) but there something that stops me from asking permission from my father. I know I could, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm qute sure he would allow me, but something really stops me. Literally I and can't sleep. I was restless. I was hesitant to tell this to my spiritual director. But the inevitable came, I shared this to my director and together we discerned whether this is God's will for me, that is, to visit and enter to that monastery. I went to a silent retreat afterwards for a "general" discernment with a religious order.. and then I found my home with that order. Looking back this experience sounds very but it is a learning experience for me. I just have to let go of my desires and let God take charge of the whole discernment.

This is quite a long post, not sure if you would read this one, but I am asking for your prayers although I a, not well-known here in Phatmass . I feel the desire to enter now and not finish my college degree. I have met people of my age who have entered the seminary and the convent. I'm asking God, "why not now?". I have to discern the "when". I found my where (my heart really tells me that this order is where I belong.)

God bless you.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='In The Arms of The Lord' timestamp='1284474815' post='2173014']
Hello everyone. After reading a certain post, I thought these would be good experiences to share for those discerning. When you have such a strong desire and you are certain that it is His also, if this happend, how did you find out that it was not or was it rather confirmed that it is?

We receive signs and confirmations in many different ways; and yet we seem to be wondering about this even after these signs and confirmations. Is it not paying attention, or maybe wanting to hear or see something else, or maybe even having a desire so strong but there is a reluctance to act which may cause doubts also? Of course trust, willingness, and surrender is needed no matter what path we are discerning, and if they are not there we will not go much further. Often times while discerning we want to be so certain, but it doesn't happen this way; they are really acts of faith. When we love Jesus and desire His will, everything falls into place. Does anyone have anything to share?
[/quote]


A priest friend told my gran it was all about "Prayer and Time."

Whenever I have doubts, I pray and ask God that if I'm not meant for religious life, for him to let me know. After that, I always feel a sense of peace and an inner voice saying "I desire you for myself."

Pray about it. It's the best thing we have!

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='tnavarro61' timestamp='1284905885' post='2174537']

...


Another experience, I called a monastery and really did my best to make everything ready. Really. The only problem is a plane ticket and permission from my father. I called the vocation director, asked for directions and prayers. It was really well-prepared (according to my perception ) but there something that stops me from asking permission from my father. I know I could, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm qute sure he would allow me, but something really stops me. Literally I and can't sleep.[b] I was restless. I was hesitant to tell this to my spiritual director. But the inevitable came, I shared this to my director and together we discerned whether this is God's will for me, that is, to visit and enter to that monastery. I went to a silent retreat afterwards for a "general" discernment with a religious order.. and then I found my home with that order. Looking back this experience sounds very but it is a learning experience for me. I just have to let go of my desires and let God take charge of the whole discernment.[/b]


...
[/quote]


What good news to hear!! God bless you, tnavarro61!! I will continue to keep you and your vocation in my prayers!!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='tnavarro61' timestamp='1284905885' post='2174537']
nunsense wisdom. thank you very much for telling this.

My own desires die a natural death actually. God just takes our own desires out of our way, and He keeps us on the track.

One time, I called the Society of Saint Paul. They're a good order. I think I would excel in communication apostolate, so I called them and asked for more information. I was in highschool that time. But when they call me, I couldn't answer the phone because they call me during class hours. In our high school, one is not allowed to bring out of your pockets cellphones lest you get reprimanded. This is a long story, I just tried to make it short. Finally when I had the chance to answer the phone, the desire no longer burns. The desire already died. Our desires die, His desire lasts.

Another experience, I called a monastery and really did my best to make everything ready. Really. The only problem is a plane ticket and permission from my father. I called the vocation director, asked for directions and prayers. It was really well-prepared (according to my perception ) but there something that stops me from asking permission from my father. I know I could, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm qute sure he would allow me, but something really stops me. Literally I and can't sleep. I was restless. I was hesitant to tell this to my spiritual director. But the inevitable came, I shared this to my director and together we discerned whether this is God's will for me, that is, to visit and enter to that monastery. I went to a silent retreat afterwards for a "general" discernment with a religious order.. and then I found my home with that order. Looking back this experience sounds very but it is a learning experience for me. I just have to let go of my desires and let God take charge of the whole discernment.

This is quite a long post, not sure if you would read this one, but I am asking for your prayers although I a, not well-known here in Phatmass . I feel the desire to enter now and not finish my college degree. I have met people of my age who have entered the seminary and the convent. I'm asking God, "why not now?". I have to discern the "when". I found my where (my heart really tells me that this order is where I belong.)

God bless you.
[/quote]


Thank you for sharing such a sweet story with us all. We are all praying for you of course.

God sometimes speaks to me through the Mass too if I listen very carefully. The readings, the Gospel and the homily will have a 'theme' and then it all comes together after I receive Communion and am spending time in thanksgiving.

The first Sunday I was back from my live-in visit, everything at Mass seemed to be about following Jesus, picking up our Cross, giving up our families, etc. So I knew in my heart what He was asking of me. I applied for entry and then left the rest up to Him.

Then when I was trying to arrange my flight to go back to Carmel, I couldn't seem to find a cheap enough one on the day we had planned for my entrance (St Teresa's feast day) and thought that perhaps I should delay my entry for awhile and earn some more money instead. I didn't want to head off to the convent completely broke (in case I need to leave for some reason) and perhaps I was also wanting to delay because of fear.

Then yesterday He spoke to me at Mass again, with the whole theme about not being able to serve God and money too, that one cannot serve two masters. I realized that I had been doubting that He would take care of me in any situation, so when I got home, I booked my ticket. I received confirmation that this was the right thing do when I received an email from the Carmel telling me not to worry about money if I didn't have enough for the fare because they would help, or if I needed to leave for any reason, they would take care of that too. I know now that I will probably not have a lot of money left in the bank when I head off next month, but it doesn't matter to me anymore.

We need to trust ourselves but we need to trust Him more, and to listen for Him. You sound as if you are doing that very well! Finding the right community is a very important thing - so when you enter is just a matter of time and patience and more trust in Him.

Edited September 20, 2010 by nunsense

[Sarah147]

Fantastic! That is amazing that they will help you.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1284946072' post='2174766']
Fantastic! That is amazing that they will help you.
[/quote]



It was an incredibly kind offer on their part but fortunately I had enough to pay for my own plane ticket - just nothing much left over. Before I left the live-in visit, the Prioress told me not to worry if money was the only reason I couldn't come back, but I said I didn't want them to pay for my fare in case things didn't work out. I have every intention of staying, but the way things have gone in my life, I don't consider anything to be written in stone.

I mean, what if they decide after awhile that they don't think I belong there (like the last Carmel).... I wanted to be prepared for that. But now I realize that if that is God's will, then He will provide, so it's okay. He strips everything away from me over and over again... it is kind of scary, but I am also very grateful because I know He only does it for the good of my soul. I feel a little bit like an elastic band sometimes because one minute I am trusting Him completely, and then something happens that scares me, and I try to take control again, obviously because I am not trusting Him enough.

Whatever happens, good or bad, I need to be able to see His will in all of it... just when I think I am able to do this, something else happens that tests that. It is a steep learning curve. The only thing that makes it all possible for me, especially as an old dog like me isn't supposed to be able to learn new tricks very easily, is that I love Him. Somehow, incredibly, He has allowed me to love Him. And even though I don't have 'perfect love' yet, even the little I do have is able to cast out fear for me. God is very good and very kind and very patient with me. And I am very grateful.