Are Certain Vaccines Immoral To Give Our Children?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='mommas_boy' timestamp='1284253570' post='2172090']By this, I mean to say that the abortion caused the vaccine, rather than the other way around. With any future cell lines that are developed, I see our use of the current vaccine as creating a [b]demand[/b] that [b]causes[/b] future evil. In summary, I view use of current cell lines as not only an immaterial cooperation with a past evil that has already happened, but also as a material cooperation with a future, inevitable evil. Am I correct in thinking this?
[/quote]

If anything, it would be remote material cooperation.

~Sternhauser

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1284239060' post='2171991']
On a seperate note --so, in link 3 it says:


I would REALLY like to know how they phrased that question, and the age group they asked. I guess I just find it kind of lame that they're trying to use that as support for using a vaccine. Totally an emotional appeal and says nothing about the actual vaccine. Maybe it's just me, but that kind of throws the rest of the information into question for some MAJOR biases.
[/quote]
I wondered that, too. How could the children understand all the implications of it? What information was told them? How was it phrased? Obviously chicken pox isn't fun, but it's not the end of the world, either. Kieran didn't seem too bothered by having it, though he only had one of the spots actually blister. Breastfeeding immunity for the win.

[sixpence]

Chickenpox vacc is kind of hit or miss.
As for MMR, I have a classmate who lived in a community of Christians with the interesting idea that they should avoid all vaccines and modern medicine and simply trust in God. Of course, the community started an epidemic of measles right in the middle of Philadelphia!! It is not that unlikely that children will get one of these diseases if they go un-vaccinated. I would also suggest that it is possibly not morally correct to give these diseases a platform to spread and possibly kill others through further transmission (as it seems you are considering the future implications of your actions), like it would not be good to go hang around immno-compromised when you know you have the flu. I would look into the alternative forms someone listed, using animals, and if those didn't pan out I would seriously take the normal kind into consideration. Hope this was somewhat helpful.

[StMichael]

All it would take is for the Vatican to make a statement on this and alternatives would be made available.

Human Dyploid cells is the language and it isn't just fear of contracting the disease, but schools will stop the child from attending if these vaccines are not given.

Funny, muslims can refuse these vaccines, based on their "religion" and still attend schools, etc.

I'm baffled as to why the Vatican refuses to address this, say it is against our faith, and allow us not to suffer with this decision.

[quote name='katie' timestamp='1284150898' post='2171510']
Hello!

My husband and I are trying to discern if we should give our sons the MMRII vaccine or not. They have received the others (except chickenpox and Hepatitis A & B) and we don't have an issue with them. However, the Rubella part of the MMR is made from aborted fetal cells. The two M's stand for Measles and Mumps.
Both of these are NOT made from the baby cells. Merck, the vaccine manufaturer, has quit producing the vaccine minus the RUbella. SO, if we choose not to vaccinate, our boys will not have protection against the Measles or Mumps. My uncle is clinically sterile from contracting the mumps as a child. Understandably, we are rather nervous about this decision.

SO, Is it moral to use this vaccine, in full knowledge taht it contains baby cells?

A wonderful website that my Doctor sent me to is www.codforlife.org It has all the information on aborted fetal cell vaccines. It stands for CHildren of God for Life.
[/quote]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1284286117' post='2172203']
I wondered that, too. How could the children understand all the implications of it? What information was told them? How was it phrased? Obviously chicken pox isn't fun, but it's not the end of the world, either. Kieran didn't seem too bothered by having it, though he only had one of the spots actually blister. Breastfeeding immunity for the win.
[/quote]
Exactly. Obviously, if the kid was asked, "Do you want to get really sick and have itchy spots all over and get a fever and have to stay in bed all day for days and days? OR do you want to just get one shot and not have to worry about it?" then the shot sounds a heck of a lot better! I also find it interesting that no study is quoted and therefore, there is no way to find out that information. Then again, being in PT school, I have a REALLY hard time accepting any information that isn't given to me in a peer reviewed journal, with scientific studies to back it up, as that is what we HAVE to do for school.

I actually remember having chicken pox in kindergarten. I think one of my brothers told me I would turn into a chicken, so I was jumping off the couch and trying to fly...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1284317053' post='2172303']
Exactly. Obviously, if the kid was asked, "Do you want to get really sick and have itchy spots all over and get a fever and have to stay in bed all day for days and days? OR do you want to just get one shot and not have to worry about it?" then the shot sounds a heck of a lot better! I also find it interesting that no study is quoted and therefore, there is no way to find out that information. Then again, being in PT school, I have a REALLY hard time accepting any information that isn't given to me in a peer reviewed journal, with scientific studies to back it up, as that is what we HAVE to do for school.

I actually remember having chicken pox in kindergarten. I think one of my brothers told me I would turn into a chicken, so I was jumping off the couch and trying to fly...
[/quote]
I prefer seeing things in peer-reviewed journals, too. I tend to be very critical of things, and look at methodology and all that. Guess I got something out the one year of doing a research degree.

I don't remember having chicken pox as I was quite young (though I do have memories earlier than chicken pox - guess it just didn't affect me that much).

[Skinzo]

[quote name='katie' timestamp='1284150898' post='2171510']
Hello!

My husband and I are trying to discern if we should give our sons the MMRII vaccine or not. They have received the others (except chickenpox and Hepatitis A & B) and we don't have an issue with them. However, the Rubella part of the MMR is made from aborted fetal cells. The two M's stand for Measles and Mumps.
Both of these are NOT made from the baby cells. Merck, the vaccine manufaturer, has quit producing the vaccine minus the RUbella. SO, if we choose not to vaccinate, our boys will not have protection against the Measles or Mumps. My uncle is clinically sterile from contracting the mumps as a child. Understandably, we are rather nervous about this decision.

SO, Is it moral to use this vaccine, in full knowledge taht it contains baby cells?

A wonderful website that my Doctor sent me to is www.codforlife.org It has all the information on aborted fetal cell vaccines. It stands for CHildren of God for Life.
[/quote]

There is a Vatican statement on this issue which I would direct your attention to. While your cooperation as a parent would be "mild" it does not end there. We should concern ourselves with protesting the immoral means used to produce these vaccines, as the Vatican statement says:
[font="Arial"][size="2"]"Therefore, doctors and fathers of families have a duty to take recourse to alternative vaccines[sup]13[/sup] (if they exist), putting pressure on the political authorities and health systems so that other vaccines without moral problems become available. They should take recourse, if necessary, to the use of conscientious objection[sup]14[/sup] with regard to the use of vaccines produced by means of cell lines of aborted human foetal origin. Equally, they should oppose by all means (in writing, through the various associations, mass media, etc.) the vaccines which do not yet have morally acceptable alternatives, creating pressure so that alternative vaccines are prepared, which are not connected with the abortion of a human foetus, and requesting rigorous legal control of the pharmaceutical industry producers."
[/size][/font]
In summary:

"[font="Arial"][size="2"]there is a grave responsibility to use alternative vaccines and to make a conscientious objection with regard to those which have moral problems;[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]as regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one's own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole - especially for pregnant women;[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]the lawfulness of the use of these vaccines should not be misinterpreted as a declaration of the lawfulness of their production, marketing and use, but is to be understood as being a passive material cooperation and, in its mildest and remotest sense, also active, morally justified as an [i]extrema ratio[/i] due to the necessity to provide for the good of one's children and of the people who come in contact with the children (pregnant women);[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"]such cooperation occurs in a context of moral coercion of the conscience of parents, who are forced to choose to act against their conscience or otherwise, to put the health of their children and of the population as a whole at risk. This is an unjust alternative choice, which must be eliminated as soon as possible.[/size][/font] "

The full text of the Vatican statement can be found here: [url="http://www.immunize.org/concerns/vaticandocument.htm"]http://www.immunize....candocument.htm[/url]

S.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Skinzo

[Maggyie]

The thing is, Chicken Pox can be a fatal disease. Most do not die from it or even suffer serious complications... but some little ones do die. Whereas, the vaccine has not killed anybody, that we know of. Like all approved vaccines, it is a 100% safe jab for the overwhelming majority of children.

It has to be a cost-benefit analysis for every individual (wouldn't do it for kids who have compromised immune systems etc). But for the families who have lost a child to this "no big deal" virus, it means a lot that kids no longer have to die this way. It's not a pleasant death.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1285248360' post='2175449']
The thing is, Chicken Pox can be a fatal disease. Most do not die from it or even suffer serious complications... but some little ones do die. Whereas, the vaccine has not killed anybody, that we know of. Like all approved vaccines, it is a 100% safe jab for the overwhelming majority of children.

It has to be a cost-benefit analysis for every individual (wouldn't do it for kids who have compromised immune systems etc). But for the families who have lost a child to this "no big deal" virus, it means a lot that kids no longer have to die this way. It's not a pleasant death.
[/quote]
While I know chicken pox can lead to death in rare instances, we don't know how long immunity lasts from the vaccine, and we do know that cases of shingles, also potentially deadly, are on the rise because adults aren't being exposed to children with chicken pox, thus losing an immunity booster. You're right that there's a risk-benefit ratio to look at, I just personally don't see that the chicken pox vaccine meets that requirement.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1285250920' post='2175459']
While I know chicken pox can lead to death in rare instances, we don't know how long immunity lasts from the vaccine, and we do know that cases of shingles, also potentially deadly, are on the rise because adults aren't being exposed to children with chicken pox, thus losing an immunity booster. You're right that there's a risk-benefit ratio to look at, I just personally don't see that the chicken pox vaccine meets that requirement.
[/quote]

I always thought shingles was just re-activiated chicken pox? IOW you can't get shingles if you've never had chicken pox? In which case, the kids growing up now who are all being vaccinated wouldn't have to worry about it. Although it's a good point that we don't know how long the immunity lasts from the vaccine. If it wears off by the time you're in you're twenties, and enough people refuse to use the vaccine (so it's not eradicated), then it's pretty dangerous since chicken pox is deadlier for adults.

There's probably some kind of booster shot in development, I wouldn't be surrpised if these pharma companies count on their product "wearing off" so they can charge for a second round.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1285254827' post='2175462']
I always thought shingles was just re-activiated chicken pox? IOW you can't get shingles if you've never had chicken pox? In which case, the kids growing up now who are all being vaccinated wouldn't have to worry about it. Although it's a good point that we don't know how long the immunity lasts from the vaccine. If it wears off by the time you're in you're twenties, and enough people refuse to use the vaccine (so it's not eradicated), then it's pretty dangerous since chicken pox is deadlier for adults.

There's probably some kind of booster shot in development, I wouldn't be surrpised if these pharma companies count on their product "wearing off" so they can charge for a second round.
[/quote]
Shingles is caused by the same virus, yes. AFAIK, they don't yet know if getting the varicella vaccine for chicken pox means those who are vaccinated would possibly get shingles later in life. I know there's a shingles vaccine, too, though it also uses foetal cells.

In my situation, something to consider as well is the fact that we'll likely be traveling between the US and UK for many years (even if we move back to the US, my daughter's godmother lives in England, so we'd come back on occasion). In England they don't give the chicken pox vaccine, so it's likely my children will be exposed to it, and that I will thus have a natural immunity booster (my son has already had chicken pox). So in my situation it really makes no sense to get it, IMO.

[strgzr00]

Here's a link from the Center for Disease Prevention and Control in Atlanta, GA.

[url="http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?queryText=aborted+fetal+tissue+vaccines&searchButton.x=0&searchButton.y=0&action=search"]http://www.cdc.gov/s...0&action=search[/url]

I couldn't call up any of the links, but there's a note that vaccines haven't used aborted fetal cells since the 1960's. Maybe readers can get the links to work.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='strgzr00' timestamp='1286852446' post='2179227']
Here's a link from the Center for Disease Prevention and Control in Atlanta, GA.

[url="http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?queryText=aborted+fetal+tissue+vaccines&searchButton.x=0&searchButton.y=0&action=search"]http://www.cdc.gov/s...0&action=search[/url]

I couldn't call up any of the links, but there's a note that vaccines haven't used aborted fetal cells since the 1960's. Maybe readers can get the links to work.
[/quote]
As I understand it, they haven't used [b]new [/b]foetal cells since then, but certain vaccines continue to use those foetal cells.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1286872570' post='2179253']
As I understand it, they haven't used [b]new [/b]foetal cells since then, but certain vaccines continue to use those foetal cells.
[/quote]

Yes, this is exactly it. I am not all sciency (if I've got my facts screwed up I am sure someone will correct me) so I can't explain it well, but basically they just generate new cells from the same fetal cell line (kind of like how they create "new" things with stem cells). So, ultimately, (as I understand it) the DNA in the human dilpoid cells used in our vaccines today is the same as the cells used back in the 1960s.

I may have botched that explanation horribly, but that was how I understood it when I read how the cell lines were produced. The only small comfort I took from it was that the babies weren't aborted specifically to create these vaccines, their bodies were utilized after the fact.

[Brother Adam]

This was brought up on the Q&A forum recently. The Church ruled that barring special serious circumstances it is still an indirect cooperation in evil to make use of the vaccinations and Catholics are urged not to do so.