Contradiction

[dw24]

Hi all, I really appreciate participating in your forum and will start my posting with new information. I have read many books and recently found some information contradicts to what we have been told like:

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus
The Truth About Prophet Jesus
The Real Story Of Mary
Is Jesus the same as God ?
The True Message of Jesus Christ
True Christianity
What Did Jesus Really Say?
The God That Never Was
Prophet Jesus Never Claimed Divinity
Who invented the Trinity?
What all Christians and Jews MUST know about the Bible
Examining The Bible
Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?



Source of information:

[url="http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html"]http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html[/url]
[url="http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html"]http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html[/url]
etc

Where are we from those sources, Do we have an answer.

[dUSt]

Would you like to focus on one topic at a time? It would be helpful.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Welcome to teh phatmass!

[OraProMe]

Hey,

You might want to check your facts. The very first thing you list is wrong, in fact for at least 500 years every Mass ended with a reading from a gospel writer where he explicitly states that Christ is God. The phrase in the creed "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" is taken directly from the gospel of St. John.

Whether the apostles were right or not is an entirely different question, but it's just plain wrong to state that none of them believed Christ to be God.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1283782384' post='2168757']
it's just plain wrong to state that none of them believed Christ to be God.
[/quote]

I sort of lol'd at that part.

[MithLuin]

From your first source:

[quote]The controversy about the personality of Jesus Christ is the major difference between Islam and Christianity. This difference keeps the followers of the two religions apart. Muslims look at Jesus Christ as a great Prophet of God and love and respect him as much as they love and respect Abraham, Moses and Muhammad. Christians on the other hand consider Jesus as God or son of God, a concept that Muslims cannot accept. Islam teaches that Jesus never made such a claim for himself. As a matter of fact all the cardinal doctrines of Christianity that are rejected by Islam center around the personality of Jesus. Specifically these are:

1. The Trinity

2. The Divinity of Jesus

3. The Divine Sonship of Christ

4. Original Sin, and

5. Atonement.[/quote]

I think everyone knows and understands that Muslims and Christians believe rather differently on these topics.

One reason why Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God is because he often makes this claim in the Christian gospels. I realize that there is no such claim in the Koran. That's...kinda the point.

Here are some examples of places in the gospel where Jesus is called the Son of God:

Matthew 4:1-11 When Satan tempts Jesus, he repeatedly says, 'If you are the Son of God...' Jesus always rebukes what the devil asks him to do, but he never denies the devil's statement that he is the Son of God. Likewise, when Jesus casts out demons, they address him as 'Son of God' (for instance, see Matthew 8, Mark 3, Luke 4). Granted, if the only evidence of this were demonic testimony, I would be highly skeptical as well. Fortunately for Christians, it's not.

We also have angelic testimony: 'The angel [Gabriel] answered and said to [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called [b]the Son of God.[/b]"' [i]Luke 1:35[/i]

And John the Baptist, a prophet, said of Jesus, "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God." (John 1:34)

And in that most famous of Bible passages, St. John the Evangelist, one of the apostles, writes: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." [i]John 3:16-17[/i]

But what did Jesus himself have to say about this?

[quote] Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona [son of Jonah], because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

[i]Matthew 16:13-17[/i][/quote]

That passage is pretty explicit. Some people were calling Jesus one of the prophets (even Elijah returned), but when he asked the apostles, Peter calls him the Son of God. Rather than rebuke him for blasphemy, Jesus praises him and says that his words reveal the truth of God in heaven.

Frequently throughout his trial and crucifixion, Jesus is accused of calling himself the Son of God. He never denies it. In fact....

[quote]And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?"

And He said to them, "Yes, I am."

[i]Luke 22:70[/i] [/quote]


Certainly, not everyone believes this testimony about Jesus. But it should be clear why Christians do, when the statement is made so repeatedly in our holy book. Jesus is the Son of God, and this tenet is central to our faith.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1283783463' post='2168761']
I sort of lol'd at that part.
[/quote]

Why? :s

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1283787984' post='2168793']
Why? :s
[/quote]

Because like you I agree that it is ridiculous to claim that the Apostles did not believe in Christ as God.

[dw24]

I agree with you but i think it is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.

Now Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments. These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.
Encyclopedia Britannica notes that "none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.

[MithLuin]

I agree that the prophets are a good source of religious truth. I do not agree that the Encyclopedia Britannica is the place to look to find out more about the Bible . The use of reason is very important in developing a robust faith, but I do not think it is the only source of faith. Nothing in faith is contradictory to reason, but to rely on reason alone is to deny other aspects of our humanity. In the end, our relationship with God is as complex as our human relationships, which involve emotions and trust as well as reason.

Yes, let's focus on the four Gospels. They are the best place to start when discussing the life of Jesus. They were all written based on eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life and words, though none of them were written by Jesus himself. Matthew was an Apostle. Mark was a disciple of the Apostle Peter. Luke was a physician who traveled with St. Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) and St. John was an apostle as well. The apostles (with the exception of St. Paul) were the companions of Jesus during his 3 years of public ministry. They were witness to his miracles and teaching, and to his resurrection from the dead. We have plenty of stories of miracles performed by the apostles, as well, if that is what you would like as confirmation of their words.

Certainly, I understand that Judaism and Islam cannot accept that God would even have a Son, let alone that the Son of God could become a human being. So, I see the difficulty.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='dw24' timestamp='1283854707' post='2169094']
I agree with you but i think it is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.

Now Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments. These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.
Encyclopedia Britannica notes that "none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.
[/quote]

St. Paul's epistles (at least the ones that scholars feel confident were actually authored by him) comprise the earliest known Christian writings. There are snippets of creeds and hymns in some of these writings that we know already existed for quite some time because Paul quotes them to his readers as if they are well aware of them. What's more, these creeds sometimes seem to have originally been in Aramaic (i.e., Paul translated them to Greek from their Aramaic form). Since Paul's writings were from the 50's, and he was writing to audiences far away from Jerusalem, we can already assume that these organized communities have existed for quite some time and can therefore date the creeds even earlier.

Simply put, the immediate disciples of Christ believed that he was the divine Son of God, risen from the dead, contemporaneously to the events that gave them these convictions.

[Winchester]

Oh goody, a talking points debate.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dw24' timestamp='1283854707' post='2169094']


Now Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments. These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.
Encyclopedia Britannica notes that "none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.
[/quote]

Yes and no. Protestants are people of the book, we are people of the Church - the community founded by Jesus Christ in 33AD. The Church predates the collection of writings known as the New Testament by dozens of years. The Apostles and their chosen disciples were leading churches, preaching, teaching, and celebrating the breaking of the bread and the offering of the wine, transforming it into his Body and Blood since Emmaus.
The New Testament is a time capsule of the early Church, but it is not the entire Church. Christianity is based on Tradition [ what we hand on], Magisterium [ the authority it is based on - Jesus Christ] , and Scripture [a written authoritative history of teachings recognized as God- breathed]. Once you understand the basis of Christianity, then you will have a better chance of understanding us.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dw24' timestamp='1283781486' post='2168750']
Hi all, I really appreciate participating in your forum and will start my posting with new information. I have read many books and recently found some information contradicts to what we have been told like:

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus
The Truth About Prophet Jesus
The Real Story Of Mary
Is Jesus the same as God ?
The True Message of Jesus Christ
True Christianity
What Did Jesus Really Say?
The God That Never Was
Prophet Jesus Never Claimed Divinity
Who invented the Trinity?
What all Christians and Jews MUST know about the Bible
Examining The Bible
Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?



Source of information:

[url="http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html"]http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html[/url]
[url="http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html"]http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html[/url]
etc

Where are we from those sources, Do we have an answer.
[/quote]
We're supposed to debate a list of nonsensical headlines?

Learn how to formulate an argument, then get back to us.


[quote name='dw24' timestamp='1283854707' post='2169094']
Now Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments. These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.
Encyclopedia Britannica notes that "none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.[/quote]
The four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all written within living memory of the events therein, and two of them (Matthew and John) were written by eyewitnesses.
They are the oldest written documents on the life of Jesus Christ.

But we're supposed to go to Muslim websites and the Q'ran (written over six centuries after Christ) to get the "historical" facts about Jesus' life and teachings?

[Nihil Obstat]

"In the same reign of Claudius, the all-good and gracious providence which watches over all things guided Peter, the great and mighty one among the Apostles, who, because of his virtue, was the spokesman for all the others, to Rome.
But such a great light of religion shone on the minds of those who heard Peter, that they were not satisfied to hear only once, nor with the unwritten teaching of the divine proclamation; but with every possible plea they besought mark, whose Gospel is extant, since he was Peter's follower, to leave behind also a written statement of the teaching which had been given to them orally."

So then the Gospel of Mark is a written record of the spoken teachings of a contemporary of Jesus.


Oh, that was Eusebius, by the way.