Lifeteen

[musturde]

Btw I was implying the gathering around the alter and any other objections to Lifeteen.

[cmotherofpirl]

Oik is right on the money.!!

There is nothing in the GIRM about a Bishop being able to change the Mass, and permit teenagers to gather around the altar. THe United States Conference of Catholic Bishops have NOT given lifeteen permission to do their own thing.

There is nothing in the GIRM about African-American parishes having permission to do liturgical dancing either. They are not in Africa.

What does it say about obedience if we tell teenagers the rules do not apply to them, that disobedience is acceptable?

Lifeteen knows exactly what they are doing - they know they don't have permission from the USCCB - ask them for documentation - it doesn't exist.
I have asked.

They just figure it brings kids in, so lets do it anyway. They are breaking a cardinal rule of Catholic morality.

The end does not justify the means.

They are teaching feeling good is more important than obedience, and I do hate this phrase -
what would Jesus think?

[HomeTeamFamily]

can i get a quote from teh GIRM that says that the "altar gather" is not allowed???

[JP2Iloveyou]

[quote name='lankyswimmer' date='Apr 19 2004, 08:06 AM'] can i get a quote from teh GIRM that says that the "altar gather" is not allowed??? [/quote]
The short answer is no. They can't write in every single thing that you are NOT supposed to do into the GIRM. It would take forever and be way to long for anyone to read. Instead, they only put in there what IS to be done. In short, if it doesn't specifically say to do it, then it shouldn't be done, but you are correct, there is no line that says, "Do not gather around the altar at Lifeteen Masses." This is often used to justify holding hands during the Our Father. People will say that, well, the GIRM doesn't forbid it, so we must be able to do it. That misses the entire point though. Like I said, the GIRM can't discuss things that are forbidden for the sake of brevity. The GIRM also doesn't forbid smoking of talking on your cell phone during Mass.

[quote]The Pope doesn't have to neccisarily say something about LifeTeen for it to be acceptable. Somethings can slide if the Bishop is cool with it. I haven't heard a Bishop say anything wrong about LifeTeen in my area so I'm cool with it. True, the Popes said nothing to support it, but has he said anything against it?[/quote]

Actually, this is incorrect. The local bishop has no authority in this regard. For that matter, neither do episcopal councils like the USCCB. All authority to change the liturgy lies in Rome.

Canon 838, 1. [b]The supervision of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See[/b] and, in accord with the law, the diocesan bishop.

The liturgical law does not give the bishop authority to override the general law, which does not allow this practice. In fact, only the ministers are to be in the sanctuary (including laity serving as lectors, servers, etc.), and they may not stand around the altar as if concelebrants.

This does give the local ordinary some flexibility on liturgical law, but having people other than the ministers in the sanctuary is not among them.

[Philippe]

argh will someone just get a final answer?

[Banksey]

what is wrong with altar gathering?

[Yours Truly]

I myself am 17 years old and have been attending LT at my parish for 3 years now and i strongly disagree with gathering on the alter and have had many arguments with the core team and our priests and i acctually stopped coming up for a few weeks until our DRE convinced me that i should continue if nothing more for unity of practice within lifeteen. So i drudgingly go up everyweek, well i don't feel so bad about it when i'm a eucharistic minister up there, thats about every week but still ...

Noone in our parish kneels because we don't have kneelers, this itself infuriates me because people are more worried about their knee's hurting then showing revernce to the holy sacrifie of the alter. Stupid heathens *shakes fist*

-Yours Truly

[nikkan_hanil]

i'm not against it, but some

lt masses have "liturgical abuse" written all over them.

[morostheos]

On a positive note, the lifeteen website got a green light from Catholic Culture

(just trying to lighten up the mood)

[Banksey]

hehe thanx

[SevenSorrows]

[quote name='aznsonny27' date='Apr 19 2004, 05:25 PM'] what is wrong with altar gathering? [/quote]
Well first off, Church law is against it, so that should be good enough. But that being said, it is also Church law that we must kneel during the consecration and from what I have seen, lifeteen masses do not do this (yes I know their are exceptions). But the altar is holy, a miracle occurs there, they are witnessing a miracle in which bread and wine are becoming the body and blood of Christ and:
1) they are distracting the rest of the Church who is gathering to observe this miracle. It is very distracting to see 20-50 kids crowding around an altar and fidgiting and moving/talking, laughing.
2) The immodest dress of many girls is offensive, plus it is distracting and causing people to sin, while they are in the presence of God.
3) The youth are learning that if someone wants to change something in the Church without official approval it is ok, as long as a bunch of people like it.
4) It detracts from the reverence and mystery of the act. If the altar is no longer holy and revered, then what is?
But I am tired and don't feel like thinking of more.

Lastly, I too have tried to contact Lifeteen, but they never like to write back. I did get one response from a Lifeteen priest on their website who tried to belittle me whenever I cited the GIRM, or canon law. Then he goes on to say that they are waiting for approval (a letter has gone to the pope to authorize lifeteen). Of course no letter has been seen and nothing has been approved, but canon law does tell us that when an abuse exists we must stop the abuse immediately until it is resolved. Unlike lifeteen who likes to continue the abuse until they get a letter from the pope (what are the chances of that). So that was a pretty safe call on their part "hey lets send a letter to the pope and if he doesn't write back, then we are ok!!!"

Don't get me wrong, I love the youth and want to bring them into the truth, but misuse and abuse is not the way.

[JP2Iloveyou]

I agree SevenSorrows. Make no mistake about it, if and when, God willing, I'm a pastor someday, Lifeteen will be welcome at my parish, but unless they have an indult in their hands from Rome, there will be NO altar gathering going on.


[quote]argh will someone just get a final answer?[/quote]
I guess I don't know how much clearer it can be made. I've quoted the GIRM and Cannon Law. is there something else you would like to see?

[HomeTeamFamily]

the way i understand it is that the canon law is like the rule....but the GIRM is the implementation of the rule, like the practical application of the rule.....we went through this crisis at our parish right before they put out the new GIRM....and after it was we discussed what it was going to mean.....and there was a part that adressed people "aproaching the altar"...meaning taking something off of it......so as long as one does not "approach the altar"...they are welcome in the sanctuary space

also....what about like before mass if someone needs to go put something on the altar or at the podium where the lectors read from?...shouldnt that also be considedred in the same category?

[dUSt]

I think LifeTeen has many very positive things going for it. Overall, I think it has the potential to be an awesome tool for the Church.

But, I do not agree with a few things LifeTeen tries to incorporate into the mass.

First, the alternate ending is just plain bad theology. "The mass never ends, it must be lived" is simply theologically unsound.

Second, there are many reasons why the altar gather is harmful:

1. The GIRM does not allow it
2. Most of the time, the teens do not kneel, which is not good (there's a [b]reason[/b] why we kneel)
3. It separates the teens from the rest of the congregation, which breaks the unity of "one body"
4. It causes a distraction to the rest of the congregation
5. It gives special treatment to one group of people, while leaving out the rest
6. It gives a false impression that the teens are just as important as the priest, blurring the lines of authority and apostolic succession

I think if LifeTeen would stop these practices it would be a lot more succesful. 1) because it would be more accepted, and 2) because I think there is a renewal among teens today for a love of Sacred Tradition--for the most part, I think they're beyond the "feel good" movement

Anyway. That's my .2 cents.

God bless.

[Dflanni]

I agree with Dust. As a Catholic seminarian and future priest I have my thoughts on this matter.
When I was in high school, some from the LifeTeen group from my parish found out that I was discerning a call to the priesthood and asked me to join them a few evenings. I was clearly against the idea, but I went anyways just to see what it was all about. I felt that if I went then I would be able to truly say that I didn't like it because I had gone. My experiences there were some what interesting. I must say that I am quite conservative, I love the tridentine Mass, that's the Latin Mass for those who may not know, and, to be quite frank, get upset when people mess, for lack of a better word, with the liturgy.
After going to LifeTeen Masses in the past, many questions have come up. First, how many of the kids here are Catholic? I would imagine that teens invite their friends to come along. Initially this is not a bad thing, as I think it is good to bring others to Christ. But I do wonder if some of those non-Catholics received the Eucharist, clearly knowing as a Catholic that they are not to do such a thing. Second, do the teens understand what is taking place at Mass? I think one can have a general idea of what happens at the Mass, as most of us are familiar with the routine of the Mass. But, do we know what we are taking part in? If teens really did know what they were taking part in then I think there would be much more reverence given, for example by the way they dress and by the way they act in church. So many times have I seen teens just talking and laughing while in the church before Mass and, as others have pointed out, most of the teens look as if they are dressed to go to the movies. We are at the wedding feast of the Lamb! What do we wear to weddings....plain movie-going clothes? Now, I am not saying that we have to get totally dolled up, like for Prom, but a nice dress or skirt for girls, with the appropriate length, sounds good and a dress shirt and nice slacks sounds good for the guys.
As a musician, I love to play music. I've played the trumpet for ten years and the drums for about eight years (I play in a band with two other seminarians called the "Priestie Boys", just as a side note). I love music, especially sacred music! Putting myself in the shoes of one who has never been to a Catholic Mass before and going to a LifeTeen Mass, I might feel as if this is how the Mass is for all Catholics around the world. And one may, not to put our Protestant brothers and sisters down necessarily, that they are at a Protestant church based on the music and the other actions that take place during a LifeTeen Mass, for example liturgical dance and the use of LifeTeen bands featuring bass, guitar, drums, etc. Whatever happened to Gregorian Chant or just even more traditional music? I could say more about this particular subject, but I will stop for your sake.
Lastly, I wish to point out that LifeTeen, in my eyes, makes the Mass to be a show which draws teens in. Now, I am not saying that there should not be means taken to bring teens in, but I think that many times there can be too much hype. One must remember first that the Mass, in itself, is beautiful and does not need the extra 'stuff' to make it more beautiful. I know it may be hard for teens to see this right off that bat. Also, one must remember that there are teens, like myself and many others, that do not like that which takes place at LifeTeen Masses. What about these people, those who may wish to be included with other teens but do not wish to take part in something that may seem to take away from the beauty of the Mass itself? I would use caution when thinking that to be a teen and go to Mass means being LifeTeen. My last point, which I think is the most important, is the fact that LifeTeen feels the need to change parts of the Mass. I have taken some classes on the Mass in my seminary formation and have reviewed the GIRM and other documents on the Liturgy, especially Sacrosanctum Concilium.....Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. Things like extending ones arms during the Pater Noster, Our Father, are to be done by the priest alone, not the people. It is a position, I belive adopted by the Romans, and if not it I know it was used by them, when one, usually of authority, was speaking. Also, having teens kneel in the sanctuary during the consecration should not be taking place. On a practical level, it is not needed and can cause much distraction, not to mention the fact that it is an act that seems to separate the community. Plus, some might feel pressured into going up to kneel by the altar. This, along with people trying to hold ones hands during parts of the Mass to pray, I assume the Our Father, causes one to be distracted, pressured, and violated in terms of personal space. Some may say such things help people to feel a sense of community. First off, we are Catholics and not congregationalist, no offense being given to them. Secondly, we have already united ourselves together in the very fact that we have come together and that we have made the sign of the cross together at the beginning of the Mass to start the most important prayer that we can pray. This can act as objection to that which at times takes place after the greeting of the priest when we are told to turn to our neighbor and greet them.
In no way do I want to appear as saying that LifeTeen is bad or wrong for what it does, though I have shown some of the areas that I think LifeTeen may want to improve on in order to celebrate the Mass better and to involve all at the Mass. I think it is good that so many teens have come into the Catholic Church by means of LifeTeen and I hope that many more will continue to come. I just wish to show one seminarians thought on the matter.
I will leave you all with some questions that I have, which are, "What happens to one after they have advanced in LifeTeen? What I mean here is that there has to be a point where one stops seeing if they are interested in the Catholic Church and the Mass. Does LifeTeen teach teens the Catholic faith, like the Catechism or is simply an act of getting kids at Mass? Also, does anyone know if there has been a study on the number of people who attended LifeTeen that continue to go to Mass, let's say, for instance, after going off to college, getting married, etc?" Just curious. pax Christi!

In Christ and Mary,

Derrick Flannigan