Heaven: The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb

[MithLuin]

I know the short answer to the question 'What is heaven like?'

We don't know.

We'll find out when we get there, God willing.

And that is enough. I trust that heaven is good, better than earth, and that Jesus will be there, so the details are irrelevant.

But I think that sometimes, we forget to give people an idea of just what is so good about heaven. I mean, why do people want to go there if they don't even know what it is? If some street preacher tells someone they can't go to heaven unless x,y,z, and they get offended....why did they want to go anyway? Is heaven just some generic good, some nebulous thought or 'wish-list'?

I was thinking about this because of a (very non-serious) comment [b]Ignatius of Loyola[/b] made in another thread about a month ago.

[quote]It doesn't really matter what I believe on this issue. Heaven is going to be what it is, whatever I think. Heck, not marrying or being given in marriage doesn't sound like heaven to me, either. So, I'll just have to take Christ's word for it that I'll like it when I get there.[/quote]

While trust in God is always a good thing, I thought, well, it would be good to discuss what the Church [i]does[/i] teach about heaven. Sure, none of us know what it's like. And, barring some mystical experience, none of us is really [i]capable[/i] of understanding. But...that doesn't mean we can't talk about it, at least a little

Because...if heaven is our hope, and our true home...it's good to have some idea of what it is we are looking forward to.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Peter Kreeft's [url="http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Wanted-Heaven-Dreamed-Asking/dp/0898702976#reader_0898702976"]Everything You Wanted to Know About Heaven But Never Dreamed of Asking[/url] is a great one for this topic!

[little_miss_late]

Thanks for starting this topic, MithLuin.

I have my own ideas about heaven but to be honest, I'm not sure how many of them are in line with church teaching. I would like to do a little (just a little) reading and thinking though, and then come back and talk about it.

[Brother Adam]

Actually, we do know what heaven is like, it is like [b]Mass[/b]. Mas is a foretaste of heaven where the Lamb, Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity is the center of our liturgy. That is why Mass done poorly is such an insult, because of the high meaning of the Mass. What we can know about heaven, we know because of what God has revealed to us in revelation. The best image we have of heaven is our Eucharistic Lord and the heavenly liturgy celebrated on earth. Will that compare to the Beatific Vision, not even close, if you can compare such a thing.

[MithLuin]

Well, yes, I have some ideas of what to compare heaven to, as the title of the thread suggests , but no matter what comparison we make, it is bound to fall woefully short. There is going to be an 'eye has not seen, ear has not heard...' But I agree with you that the comparisons should be made.

What I am getting at is the popular notion that heaven is a 'dreams come true' kinda place. As one of the minor priest characters remarks flippantly in the movie 'The Exorcist,' "My idea of heaven is a solid white nightclub, with me as the headliner, for all eternity...and they love me!" Heaven is all about love, and all about being with people (well, namely God), but there is something very weak about that idea. Meaning, it's not that we won't be happy in heaven, but that people's ideas of what would make them happy tend to be very...cheap? in comparison to the real thing.

I can't describe the Beatific Vision, of course. I think it's something beyond words, and that's just the way it is. But whatever the interior life of the Trinity is, the love shared between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit....well, to participate in that, even just a little, must be incredibly intimate. The taste we get on earth, of receiving our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament....I know that is something angels cannot do.

I also think that marriage, as created by God 'from the beginning' is meant to model the love of the Trinity - total self-giving, and being completely open to another person...it is difficult to be that vulnerable, to not hide behind walls that we build between ourselves. But even in the most loving marriage, where the couple obviously share one another's life and are very 'together,' there is still an imperfect union. Marriage is hard work, and while it is true that the two become one...they are still quite often two, and at odds.

Whatever the Beatific Vision is, or is not, it certainly involves union with God. That's what the mystics are longing for in their love poetry (I'm thinking particularly of St. John of the Cross, but there are others), and that's what the ultimate goal is. But not only would we be united with God in some way that is without barriers or division (and yet remain ourselves), but we would also be united with all those who are also united with God in the Beatific Vision as well.

That's why there is no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven...we have the closely intimate relationship associated with marriage here on earth....with [i]every[/i] soul in heaven. Now that, I really don't get at all. I don't understand how it works, or what it even means. I just know that there is no longer any need for marriage, because even the person you've been married to for ages...would now be more intimately united with you because of your mutual union with God. But the soul in heaven has the same relationship with all the other saints, so the 'exclusivity' of marriage would fall away. Marriage has no meaning in heaven, but you don't suddenly forget about your spouse or something.

Religious life is also considered a foretaste of heaven, because the vowed religious is seeking union with God here and now, starting to live heaven on earth. Women religious are often called 'the bride of Christ' showing their consecration of themselves totally to Jesus. We all are asked to give our lives wholly to God in some way, but they live it out in a particular way that is meant to point others to the mystery of the marriage supper of the lamb. They are living signs of heaven. One reason so, so many people ask the question, "Why can't priests be married?" is because they don't understand that there is something after this life to look forward to. They really are living contradictions in our world as they live out their vocation.

But I started this thread to find out how others view the promise of heaven, so I'll shush now.

[LouisvilleFan]

I imagine heaven as an immense city and world that can never be fully explored. Just think that even in spite of Earth's own finite existence, in thousands of years there are still places that no human eye has seen or foot had traveled, millions of species let undiscovered, mysteries that will likely never be solved. Heaven will be infinitely grander!

[AccountDeleted]

Heaven for me is Jesus. I don't care what else is there, as long as He is!

[kafka]

A soul assumed into Heaven experiences unfading vision of God and union with God. The will is united with God and loves to the fullest and the intellect sees God face to face and this vision reinforces the will to love and so the vision and union continually interact to effect an unfading happiness which overflows and inebriates like wine being poured into cup to overflowing.

{22:5} You have prepared a table in my sight, opposite those who trouble me. You have anointed my head with oil, and my cup, which inebriates me, how brilliant it is!

Heaven is with Jesus and Mary, the Angels, and all saints. The relationships begun on earth in the Lord in accord with His will, grace and providence will be perfected and completed in Heaven. So those we begin to love on earth will be especially close to us and with us forever more so than those we did not have a relationship with.

Heaven is a realm beyond all Time and Place since it is with God who is Eternity. The beginning of the Heaven was when God created it, yet since it is with God as He is, and He is Eternity, the beginning of Heaven is before and beyond the beginning of the Universe and the creation of Earth. It is before and beyond all salvation history. Once one is assumed into Heaven, one was always there since its beginning is before and beyond all creation-since it is beyond all Time which is before and after and beyond all Place which is here and there. So once one is assumed he was always there before the creation of the Universe. And He sees God create the Universe and watches everything unfold in awe. And he will not have to wait for a relative or friend to enter into Heaven since they will already be there.

One will see all of creation and all of history unfold as if in the present tense. And it is not as if he sees and experiences it from afar rather it is as if he is there. When Jesus cried out "Follow me all you who are labored and burdened. . . " you are there and He is speaking to you and you are refreshed. Present tense, past tense and future tense has no meaning to that which transcends all Space and Time.

One who is assumed into Heaven will not have to wait for the Resurrection since there is no passage of Time in Heaven. It will seem as if it happens in a twinkling of an eye while all history passes in an instant. Heaven sees everything without experiencing the separation.

There is order in Heaven. Some are greater than others. Some will teach and lead others. Some will perform different tasks than others, but all will be happy because of the unfading vision and union overflowing in each and every person even beyond their capacity yet not exactly the same as the others for each one experiences God in a unique way according to the uniqueness of each person begun on earth and perfected and glorified in Heaven.

After the general resurrection and the general judgment God creates a New Heaven because Jesus and Mary descend and all the souls are emptied and reunited to their resurrected bodies for the general judgment. God creates the New Heaven to be fitting for the new just with their new bodies. The New Earth is also created and the just will descend upon it and who knows what that will be like. But even if the just descend upon the New Earth they will still be in the New Heaven since it is beyond all Time and Place.

The acts of faith and hope will cease yet these virtues will somehow be transformed into glorified virtues and still remain in some way since Heaven is not static and God is Infinite. The just inhabiting the New Heaven and New Earth will continue to learn and grow and develop in some way since love is not static.

[Sarah147]

Heaven is contemplative union with God. (I was surprised it isn't ecstasy.) We forever praise and Worship God in Heaven. Community of all the souls in Heaven. There is no longer faith because we fully enter into His Presence, the Beatific Vision. Some people have described it as pure love, peace, and joy.

Because Heaven is contemplative union with God, that's why we want to pray for the gift of contemplative prayer. We can experience God and Heaven, to a degree, as we would in Heaven.


Thread about book on Heaven:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107938"]http://www.phatmass....howtopic=107938[/url]

Heaven thread:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107084&st=0&p=2149102&fromsearch=1&#entry2149102"]http://www.phatmass....1[/url]

Edited September 6, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1283735769' post='2168614']
Heaven is contemplative union with God. (I was surprised it isn't ecstasy.) We forever praise and Worship God in Heaven. Community of all the souls in Heaven. There is no longer faith because we fully enter into His Presence, the Beatific Vision. Some people have described it as pure love, peace, and joy.

Because Heaven is contemplative union with God, that's why we want to pray for the gift of contemplative prayer. We can experience God and Heaven, to a degree, as we would in Heaven.


Thread about book on Heaven:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107938"]http://www.phatmass....howtopic=107938[/url]

Heaven thread:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107084&st=0&p=2149102&fromsearch=1&#entry2149102"]http://www.phatmass....1[/url]
[/quote]

Ecstasy is the way the physcial body reacts to 'receiving' an overwhelming experience from God, whereas praise and worship are a 'giving' to God in love and adoration. In heaven, we can be in His presence without succumbing to the physical limitations of the body, so we can devote ourselves to giving Him what is His due. What higher or greater joy could there possibly be than to adore Him, praise Him and worship Him as the angels do?

[Sarah147]

Very interesting what you say about ecstasy being a physical reaction.

In ecstasy, some levitate. While in Heaven, we are able to transport to wherever at the instant a thought is created. People in Heaven can move so easily and quickly.

Edited September 6, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1283740210' post='2168637']
Very interesting what you say about ecstasy being a physical reaction.

In ecstasy, some levitate. While in Heaven, we are able to transport to wherever at the instant a thought is created. People in Heaven can move so easily and quickly.
[/quote]


Ecstasy and levitation are two different states, but they can be experienced simultaneously, according to God's good pleasure. St John of the Cross says that physical manifestations are a 'weakness' but God can use our weakness to His glory. A physical manifestation is no guarantee of holiness however, since the devil can also imitate such states.

As for moving around heaven, no matter how easy it is, I don't want to move anywhere. I want to stay permanently attached to Jesus' feet!

[Sarah147]