Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Heaven, But Never Dreamed Of

[Sarah147]

Hello,

"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven, but Never Dreamed of Asking" by Peter Kreeft


Fantastic book! Unfortunetly, it's a little wordy though.

Have you read this book? What were your thoughts on it and what did you like about it?


I also have a heaven thread:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107084&st=0&p=2149102&fromsearch=1&#entry2149102"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107084&st=0&p=2149102&fromsearch=1&#entry2149102[/url]



God bless you.

Edited August 28, 2010 by JoyfulLife

[Miss Hepburn]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1283020361' post='2164588']
Hello,
"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven, but Never Dreamed of Asking" by Peter Kreeft

Fantastic book! Unfortunetly, it's a little wordy though.
Have you read this book? What were your thoughts on it and what did you like about it?
I also have a heaven thread:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107084&st=0&p=2149102&fromsearch=1&#entry2149102"]http://www.phatmass....1[/url]
God bless you.
[/quote]
I'm starting to be a groupie of your posts, btw.
Miss Hepburn

[TeresaBenedicta]

I read it during my freshman year of college, I think. I don't really remember much of it. Except the question of "Will there be sex in heaven?". I loved his answer to that question.

I'm a fan of Kreeft. He's very good at bringing pretty "complex" Theological stuff down to a language that everyone can understand.

[Miss Hepburn]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1283634532' post='2167908']
I read it during my freshman year of college, I think. I don't really remember much of it. Except the question of "Will there be sex in heaven?".
I loved his answer to that question.
[/quote]

Oh TB,
Would you mind terribly posting what you remember on the sex in Heaven thing - I am on a forum and that is a question there
I can just refer the poster to Mr. Kreeft , of course, and will - but if you remember that would be so great.
Miss Hepburn

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' timestamp='1283635225' post='2167912']
Oh TB,
Would you mind terribly posting what you remember on the sex in Heaven thing - I am on a forum and that is a question there
I can just refer the poster to Mr. Kreeft , of course, and will - but if you remember that would be so great.
Miss Hepburn

[/quote]

Sure. :-)

Basically, Kreeft said yes, there would be sex in Heaven... as in, there will be males and females in Heaven. But sexual intercourse? He said that it's [i]possible[/i] in so far as we will have our resurrected bodies. But we probably won't. He made an analogy (I might have this slightly wrong, but the point is the same...)... he said, who would want candy while having intercourse? Candy is sweet of course, but... Well, same thing in Heaven. It is Paradise, why would you want sex?

[kafka]

Though I like some Kreeft, as a matter of fact he has some very good teachings, I disagree with his reasoning and conclusions here. Sex is for the married state. It can only be good with the marital meaning which is inherent to the morality of the act as is the unitive and procreative. Christ taught there will be no marriage after the resurrection and this implies that there will be no marriage in first Heaven or the New Heaven and the New Earth:

Mark
{12:25} For when they will be resurrected from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but they are like the Angels in heaven.

and so therefore there will be no sex.

Edited September 4, 2010 by kafka

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' timestamp='1283618834' post='2167825']
I'm starting to be a groupie of your posts, btw.
Miss Hepburn

[/quote]







Awesome. I guess my posts have been interesting? That's great to hear.







I would think no to their being sexual intercourse in Heaven, as sex is a means of uniting in love. In Heaven, I don't think we are seeking love through people, but directly going to God. They also say that there is no marriage in Heaven. I see ecstasy, contemplative prayer, and deep union like the Saints have, to be far greater than sexual intercourse.

Some pages of the sex part of the book are available for online reading at: books.google.com


I have the Peter Kreeft book in my hands. He goes on a lot, but the main parts are:


God is a sexual being, the most sexual of all.
This sounds shocking to people only if they see sex only as physical and not spiritual...
. . . .
The love relationship between the Father and the Son within the Trinity, the relationship from which the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds, is a sexual relationship.
. . . .
Specifically human reasons for intercourse include (1) consummating a monogamous marriage and (2) the desire to express personal love. As to the first, there is no marriage in Heaven. But what of the second?
I think there will probably be millions of more adequate ways to express love than the clumsy ecstasy of fitting two bodies together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Even the most satisfying earthly intercourse between spouses cannot perfectly express ALL their love. If the possibility of intercourse in Heaven is not actualized, it is only for the same reason earthly lovers do not eat candy during intercourse: there is something much better to do...
. . . .
Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is wy we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.
. . . .
And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire.

[kafka]

I think it is crass to say that God is a sexual being but the inherent moral meaning or moral object of a good sexual act is in someway a reflection of the Trinity.

The unitive, marital, procreative is the moral object of the sexual act. The marital meaning proceeds from the unitive meaning like the Son proceeds from the Father. The procreative meaning proceeds from the unitive meaning and the marital meaning like the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

[MithLuin]

But he is not disagreeing with that, I don't think.

He is saying that the union of the Beatific Vision is such that....who would want to think about sex when you can have [i]that[/i]?

Remember that he is trying to explain these ideas to lay people and possibly Noncatholics. People who come across Jesus' words about there not being marriage in heaven and have the knee-jerk scoffing reaction of, well, if you can't have sex, what's so great about heaven, anyway?

In other words, he's trying to explain that heaven is better than marriage, not absence of marriage. Certainly, he is not disagreeing with our Lord's statement that in heaven, men neither marry nor are given in marriage!

The candy analogy was borrowed from someone like C. S. Lewis, I think.

[url=http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0350.htm]HERE[/url] is a link to Peter Kreeft discussing sex and heaven in this book. I think you'll find that he covers a lot of different viewpoints before getting to the real question of what makes heaven...heaven.

[i]Edit[/i]: Crossposted with [b]JoyfulLife[/b], sorry!

It is only crass to refer to God as a sexual being if you are using the word 'sexual' crassly. It was Jesus who taught us to call God 'Father' - how can you separate paternity from sexuality completely? I don't disagree with your explanation, [b]kafka[/b] - I think it's a beautiful view of the Trinity. I just would urge you to read Kreeft's words and consider his audience to understand why he chose to speak the way he does there.

[i]Edit 2[/i]: The title of Kreeft's book is a spoof of 'Everything You Wanted to Know about Sex (but were afraid to ask),' a sex education book in question/answer format put out in the 70s that was....not very Christian.

Edited September 4, 2010 by MithLuin

[kafka]

I see. Well sometimes that style of theology bothers me, but hopefully its helping people.

[MithLuin]

It's probably because Kreeft isn't a theologian; he's a philosopher. Different approach. For someone who already understands the theology, these beginner apologetics are very unnecessary, of course. But hopefully they help someone!

[Miss Hepburn]

When one understands what "sex" is, that is, the pure essence of what we call "sex" on this human
level - one will understand that the Creator Himself is a "sexual creature", so-called.
One will understand that He is Absolute Ecstasy Itself.
Eternally.
Btw, He is also Absolute Agony.
Eternally.

One will understand what is meant by the Divine Romance.
And what is meant by the paradox of creation.
I have experienced this.
Miss Hepburn


And I must stop keeping it to myself.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Miss Hepburn

[Pliny]

From a Peter Kreef article about sex in Heaven:

[quote]

Might there be another function in which baby-making and marriage are swallowed up and transformed, [i]aufgehoben[/i]? Everything on earth is analogous to something in Heaven. Heaven neither simply removes nor simply continues earthly things. If we apply this principle to sexual intercourse, we get the conclusion that intercourse on earth is a shadow or symbol of intercourse in Heaven. Could we speculate about what that could be?

It could certainly be spiritual intercourse—and, remember, that includes sexual intercourse because sex is spiritual. This spiritual intercourse would mean something more specific than universal charity. It would be special communion with the sexually complementary; something a man can have only with a woman and a woman only with a man. We are made complete by such union: "It is not good that the man should be alone." And God does not simply rip up His design for human fulfillment. The relationship need not be confined to one in Heaven. Monogamy is for earth. On earth, our bodies are private. In Heaven, we share each other's secrets without shame, and voluntarily. In the Communion of Saints, promiscuity of spirit is a virtue.

The relationship may not extend to [i]all[/i] persons of the opposite sex, at least not in the same way or degree. Ifit did extend to all, it would treat each differently simply because each is different—sexually as well as in other ways. I think there must be some special "kindred souls" in Heaven that we are designed to feel a special sexual love for. That would be the Heavenly solution to the earthly riddle of why in the world John falls for Mary, of all people, and not for Jane, and why romantic lovers feel their love is fated, "in the stars", "made in Heaven".

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm[/url]

[/quote]

[Sarah147]

It's a very interesting book that touches on many interesting questions.


Here are the contents:



CONTENTS

Introduction

Heaven and Us
1. What Difference Does Heaven Make?
2. Fourteen Questions About Heaven
3. What Will We Do in Heaven?
4. Is There a Purgatory?
5. What Is The Communion of Saints?
6. Will We Have Bodies in Heaven?
7. What Will Our Bodies Be Like?
8. Is There Sex in Heaven?


Heavenly Space and Time
9. Where Is Heaven?
10. Is There Time in Heaven?
11. What Is Eternity?


Heaven and Earth
12. Does Heaven Begin Now?
13. How Do We Experience Heaven Now?
14. Can We Know the Joy of Heaven Now?


Heaven and Hell
15. Is There Really a Hell?
16. Is Hell Fire or Loneliness
17. How Many Roads to Heaven?

Appendix

Index

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' timestamp='1283662891' post='2168154']
When one understands what "sex" is, that is, the pure essence of what we call "sex" on this human
level - one will understand that the Creator Himself is a "sexual creature", so-called.
One will understand that He is Absolute Ecstasy Itself.
Eternally.
Btw, He is also Absolute Agony.
Eternally.

One will understand what is meant by the Divine Romance.
And what is meant by the paradox of creation.
I have experienced this.
Miss Hepburn


And I must stop keeping it to myself.
[/quote]

I think one of the main problems is the actual word 'sex' because it has associations that make it seem crass and carnal, despite the fact that God intended it to be an experience of physical and spiritual generative intimacy here on earth.

So while I agree with much of what has been said in this thread, I prefer personally to use other words rather than 'sex' to describe the Divine Romance, such as spiritual intimacy and union or the very appropriate word Ecstasy, although this word too has some negative associations now.

Kreeft may be writing for a non-Catholic audience, but I am still not sure that using such terminology as 'sex' and promiscuity' to describe heaven is going to convey the right idea. It might just put up more obstacles to understanding what he is actually trying to say. But that could just be me.

Miss Hepburn, I do agree with the agony and ecstasy part.... God is certainly a divinely magnificent lover.

Edited September 10, 2010 by nunsense