Female Deacons

[OraProMe]

I think that theoretically female deacons are possible in the Catholic Church just not allowed, while the priesthood and episcopacy are reserved for me. At least that's what I read on my archdiocesan website. I think some Russian Orthodox convents have deaconesses too.

Do you think female deacons would be a good idea or not? Reasons please.

[Cherie]

According to my understanding of the issue, in the early Church there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but these women were not ordained. Therefore, the understanding of the term "deaconess" is different than the modern understanding. Because most worship in the early Church separated males and females, the deaconesses assisted -- yet were not ordained.

In 1994, Pope John Paul II stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" ([i]Ordinatio[/i] [i]Sacerdotalis[/i] 4)

Because, at least according to modern understanding and according to my understanding of your question, a "deaconess" would be part of ordination ... according to Pope John Paul II's statement above, I would say female deacons is not only a bad idea, it's not even possible.

If, however, you're meaning it in the sense of the early Church, where the "deaconesses" were not actually ordained, I still think it's a bad idea because of the confusion it would necessarily create. In today's world, where so many are fighting for women's ordination, it would definitely send the wrong message to the faithful, who may not understand it, or some may even twist it to suit their own agenda.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1282561835' post='2161930']
while the priesthood and episcopacy are reserved for [b]me[/b].
[/quote]

How selfish.

[Hilde]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1282566668' post='2161951']
How selfish.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img] Yeah, I was like lolwut?

[MIKolbe]

i fully expect winnie to come in and make a joke about sammiches.....

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1282566668' post='2161951']
How selfish.
[/quote]

ahahaha. What an amazing typo.

[let_go_let_God]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1282565119' post='2161944']
According to my understanding of the issue, in the early Church there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but these women were not ordained. Therefore, the understanding of the term "deaconess" is different than the modern understanding. Because most worship in the early Church separated males and females, the deaconesses assisted -- yet were not ordained.

In 1994, Pope John Paul II stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" ([i]Ordinatio[/i] [i]Sacerdotalis[/i] 4)

Because, at least according to modern understanding and according to my understanding of your question, a "deaconess" would be part of ordination ... according to Pope John Paul II's statement above, I would say female deacons is not only a bad idea, it's not even possible.

If, however, you're meaning it in the sense of the early Church, where the "deaconesses" were not actually ordained, I still think it's a bad idea because of the confusion it would necessarily create. In today's world, where so many are fighting for women's ordination, it would definitely send the wrong message to the faithful, who may not understand it, or some may even twist it to suit their own agenda.
[/quote]


I agree with Cherie. The roll of "deaconesses" was primarily to help facilitate in the Baptism of women when it was done in as adults, with full submersion and naked. If the Catholic Church were again to have "deaconesses" many from the outside would see that the church has stepped down from its position of no woman can be ordained to it can happen in certain cases. Then the Church would be seen as hypocritical and just turn into a big giant mess.

Not only as Cherie pointed out through Pope John Paul II's statement but also through an HR viewpoint. This would just be a mess.

God bless-
LGLG

[sistersintigo]

Be not dismayed, fearless poster who started this thread. There is a deeper reason for the humor and levity and irreverence of some of the responses.
If you used Phatmass Phorum's search function, you will discover older, longer threads on this very topic. Some of the threads have been closed/locked. If you take the time and trouble to look at the posts, you will know why. This topic is a flaming one, it gets heated quickly and people get burned!
This is especially true on the sub-phorum of Vocation Station, where a number of "deaconess" thread topics have appeared in the past.

Slight change of subject now.

In recent years a beautiful color photograph has been published in a scholarly volume from Europe, devoted to the Carthusian order. The photo was taken at Santa Maria de Benifasa, the venerable old monastery in northern Spain, built centuries ago by the Cistercians, preserved for a long time in vacant condition, then acquired by the Carthusians in order to found a community of cloistered women (monjas cartujas). A Spanish laywoman and scholar was permitted to enter the women's enclosure and conduct interviews and take photos for the volume, published by Analecta Cartusiana. I have seen this photo nowhere else, and know of no way to link to it or to reproduce it.
The Carthusian nun in the picture stands framed by a monastery doorway. She is dressed in the usual nun's habit, with black veil and white cowl covering a white robe, and sandals. And over her shoulders is draped a long, narrow, beautifully embroidered stole. It is all that remains of the ancient convention of the Carthusian nuns, a carry-over from a Cesarian-rule monastery whose members successfully asked to become a community in the Carthusian order. In previous centuries, the Carthusian nun who received this office wore not only a stole but also a tiara/crown and a "maniple" which is short and draped over one wrist only; now only the stole remains. All Carthusian nuns so consecrated, when they die, are buried wearing the stole along with their full habit. It is extremely rare for photographs to show this detail. I can only guess how persistent and delicate the Spanish laywoman's petitions to the prioress had to be.....

[MithLuin]

Short answer:

No reason for women to be ordained to the diaconate (and the Church can't do it).

But, plenty of opportunities for women to be involved in the ministries of the parish. They can visit the sick, prepare couples for marriage, teach RCIA or baptism prep, be a lector, youth minister, etc.


Slightly longer explanation:

Deacons have a sacramental role that is not appropriate nor open to women. But most of the work a deacon does for the parish could be done by a lay person.

The deacon has taken classes, so he is perhaps more qualified to lead catechesis...but in most dioceses, his wife would be sitting right next to him in those classes, so it's not like she doesn't learn what he's learning, too!

The original role of the deacons was to help with the distribution of alms, so certainly we're talking about the more practical aspects of charity. Women can (and should!) be involved in such things in their parish.

[IrishSalesian]

I had a professor who said in regards to ordaining women; "Ordaining a woman is like ordaining a chicken. Nothing happens."

[Hilde]

[img]http://www.laymark.com/i/ch/ch026.gif[/img]

Well...anyways. I second that many of the things a deacon does can be done by women, but they can't be deacons. If I wanted to become a deacon I could just examine why that is, and I'm pretty sure I could find a job in the church where I did those things...probably.

[Slappo]

[quote name='sistersintigo' timestamp='1282578892' post='2162018']
Be not dismayed, fearless poster who started this thread. There is a deeper reason for the humor and levity and irreverence of some of the responses.
If you used Phatmass Phorum's search function, you will discover older, longer threads on this very topic. Some of the threads have been closed/locked. If you take the time and trouble to look at the posts, you will know why. This topic is a flaming one, it gets heated quickly and people get burned!
This is especially true on the sub-phorum of Vocation Station, where a number of "deaconess" thread topics have appeared in the past.

Slight change of subject now.

In recent years a beautiful color photograph has been published in a scholarly volume from Europe, devoted to the Carthusian order. The photo was taken at Santa Maria de Benifasa, the venerable old monastery in northern Spain, built centuries ago by the Cistercians, preserved for a long time in vacant condition, then acquired by the Carthusians in order to found a community of cloistered women (monjas cartujas). A Spanish laywoman and scholar was permitted to enter the women's enclosure and conduct interviews and take photos for the volume, published by Analecta Cartusiana. I have seen this photo nowhere else, and know of no way to link to it or to reproduce it.
The Carthusian nun in the picture stands framed by a monastery doorway. She is dressed in the usual nun's habit, with black veil and white cowl covering a white robe, and sandals. And over her shoulders is draped a long, narrow, beautifully embroidered stole. It is all that remains of the ancient convention of the Carthusian nuns, a carry-over from a Cesarian-rule monastery whose members successfully asked to become a community in the Carthusian order. In previous centuries, the Carthusian nun who received this office wore not only a stole but also a tiara/crown and a "maniple" which is short and draped over one wrist only; now only the stole remains. All Carthusian nuns so consecrated, when they die, are buried wearing the stole along with their full habit. It is extremely rare for photographs to show this detail. I can only guess how persistent and delicate the Spanish laywoman's petitions to the prioress had to be.....
[/quote]

I don't know if you're trying to advocate women deaconesses or not. It is hard to tell from your post.

But to be clear, a picture of a carthusian nun wearing a stole does not show that women can become deacons. Aside from the fact that you gave no clear indicator as to what the stole is meant to represent in this case, it is a theological impossibility. Even if a bishop were to go through the necessary rituals to ordain a woman, the ordination would not "take". Similar to a same sex profession of marital vows... it would have no effect.

That said, women play a hugely major important part in the Church.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='sistersintigo' timestamp='1282578892' post='2162018']
This topic is a flaming one, it gets heated quickly and people get burned!
[/quote]

There is no debate. A woman cannot be ordained. The end.

[elizabeth09]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1282588299' post='2162081']
There is no debate. A woman cannot be ordained. The end.
[/quote]

Agree, because all the apostles were men, so women cannot be ordained!

[Katholish]

Certainly in regards priestly ordination, it is well-defined that women cannot be ordained. It is not, however, as clearly taught that they could not be ordained to the diaconate. Regardless of whether it has been actually defined, it seems theologically certain that woman cannot be validly ordained, at any level. Historical referrences to diaconesses such as those found in the Canons of the First Council of Nicea, seem to indicate a role without sacramental character (they were not ordained).

In regards to another point brought up, it was common for Medieval prioresses and Mother Superiors to be honored in their cloisters almost to the same degree as a bishop. Not only might have have donned a stole for ceremonial functions, but they were also known to have rings of office and carry crosiers. The significance of these signs of office greatly developed in the aftermath of the Investiture Crisis, and such uses all but became extinct as they became more solidly associated with the spiritual power belonging to bishops alone.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Katholish