Anneliese Michel Aka Emily Rose

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Katholish' timestamp='1282683957' post='2162591']
I feel fairly confident in saying that there are no examples of a canonized saint who has gone through the modern process who had actually been possessed by a demon at some point in their life. Certainly demonic oppression has occurred in numerous cases, but possession? Theologically speaking, it seems that actual possession requires some form of consent of the will of the one possessed (even if they didn't fully understand what they were doing).
[/quote]

Father Gabriele Amorth, one of Rome's chief exorcists, and probably the world's foremost living authority on possession, said the opposite.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Tridenteen' timestamp='1282850097' post='2163617']
JMJ
They never know truth.
Actually, that's a neat point. William Biersach wrote a book with vampyrs in it. He considers the vampyr to the lowest form of demonic posession. At the one point, when Fr.Baptist is makiing ready to dump a volley f holy water on it, the creature ffers to tell him where the soul of his deceased wife (she died, and then he became a priest) is. Fr.Baptist is tempted, but explains to his friend that demons can't tell the truth, and don't know what it is, and therefore he couldn't trust what he would be told, anyways.
[/quote]

Tridenteen,

Demons lie frequently, but they can and do tell the truth, not only under duress, but also when it suits their purposes.

~Sternhauser

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1282852062' post='2163636']
Tridenteen,

Demons lie frequently, but they can and do tell the truth, not only under duress, but also when it suits their purposes.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Which is probably why you are required to go to confession before participating in an exorcism.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1282851934' post='2163633']
Father Gabriele Amorth, one of Rome's chief exorcists, and probably the world's foremost living authority on possession, said the opposite.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Do you happen to have a source for that? Not that I doubt your word, I'd just like to read his thoughts on it. My mom used to take us to talks by various theologians all the time when we were kids. One of the scariest and most memorable talks was on exorcism.

[quote name='Tridenteen' timestamp='1282850097' post='2163617']
JMJ
They never know truth.
Actually, that's a neat point. William Biersach wrote a book with vampyrs in it. He considers the vampyr to the lowest form of demonic posession. At the one point, when Fr.Baptist is makiing ready to dump a volley f holy water on it, the creature ffers to tell him where the soul of his deceased wife (she died, and then he became a priest) is. Fr.Baptist is tempted, but explains to his friend that demons can't tell the truth, and don't know what it is, and therefore he couldn't trust what he would be told, anyways.
[/quote]



[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1282852062' post='2163636']
Tridenteen,

Demons lie frequently, but they can and do tell the truth, not only under duress, but also when it suits their purposes.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in a fictional character/series. Anything like that you would want to back up with actual Church teaching or an article by a trusted theologian.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I tried looking for a quote from Fr. Amorth but I couldn't find anything directly saying that any saints had been possessed. He says they were "seriously disturbed" (which we all know some were tortured in some way be demons, Padre Pio for example), but I always thought those examples referred to obsession and not possession. If you have another source I'd be really interested to read it.

[quote]Who can catch Satan's eye?

'Anyone. I have had cases involving people from all walks of life: simple people, housewives, but also professors, doctors and politicians, lay people as well as priests and nuns. It is important to specify that demonic possession and obsession involves the body. Satan can affect someone's body, but never their soul. He can only become the master of someone's soul if that person hands it over to him by his/her own free will. Thus anyone can end up in Satan's grip. There have even been saints who have been seriously disturbed by Satan's force.'[/quote] http://www.messengersaintanthony.com/messaggero/pagina_articolo.asp?IDX=174IDRX=56

[quote]How does one fall victim to the Devil ?

AMORTH: We can fall foul of the exceptional evils sent by the Devil for four reasons: if it works to the good of the person (in the case of many saints); persisting irreversibly in sin; because of a curse via the Devil ; or by practising occultism.
[/quote] http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=2879

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1282859580' post='2163692']
I tried looking for a quote from Fr. Amorth but I couldn't find anything directly saying that any saints had been possessed. He says they were "seriously disturbed" (which we all know some were tortured in some way be demons, Padre Pio for example), but I always thought those examples referred to obsession and not possession. If you have another source I'd be really interested to read it.

[url="http://www.messengersaintanthony.com/messaggero/pagina_articolo.asp?IDX=174IDRX=56"]http://www.messenger...?IDX=174IDRX=56[/url]

[url="http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=2879"]http://www.speroforu...cle.asp?id=2879[/url]
[/quote]

From page 57 of his book, [i]An Exorcist Tells His Story[/i]:

"The lives of many saints include examples of this affliction. Among modern saints, I can cite two who have been beatified by Pope John Paul II: Father Giovanni Calabria and Sister Mary of Jesus Crucified (who was the first Arab to be beatified). In both cases, and without any human fault, they were subjected to periods of true satanic possession. During those periods, the two saints did and said things totally incompatible with their holiness without the least fault, because it was the devil who acted through their bodies.

There is another case in which the victim is completely blameless. Here, however, there is some human activity, but it is performed by those who cast the spell or those who hire a witch to cast it."

Father Giovanni Calabria was canonized in 1999. Sister Mary of Jesus Crucified is still a Blessed.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Gregorius' timestamp='1282852892' post='2163643']
Which is probably why you are required to go to confession before participating in an exorcism.
[/quote]

Indeed! Lots of unpleasant truths come out. Even ones that have been confessed. I read (I think it was in Malachi Martin's book, [i]Hostage to the Devil[/i]) that a priest who didn't believe in the whole "exorcism" thing was standing in the back of the room watching with his arms folded, and not praying as he was supposed to have been. The demon wrenched around and said, "He doesn't believe in me, but he sure believes in [i]women[/i], yes indeed!" The priest turned bright red and left the room.

~Sternhauser

[Nihil Obstat]

Sister Mary, by the way, is absolutely fascinating.


According to oriental custom, Mariam, then age 13, was promised in marriage. The wedding was arranged without the bride-to-be’s consultation or consent. This was a common custom among Middle Eastern Christians as well as Muslims. Mariam’s reaction was one of shock and deep sadness. The night before the wedding ceremony was sleepless. She was not prepared at all for the life of a married woman. She prayed earnestly that night for guidance and solace. In her heart’s depths she again heard a familiar voice, “Everything passes! If you wish to give me your heart, I will remain with you.” Mariam knew it was her master’s voice, the one, the only spouse she would have - Jesus. The remainder of the night was spent in deep prayer before the icon of the Virgin Mother of Jesus; she then heard the words, “Mariam, I am with you; follow the inspiration I shall give you. I will help you.

Her adoptive uncle reacted with wild rage when he saw that Mariam would not marry, but would remain a virgin. He tried outburst of rage, screams, hits and slaps. Nothing would change her determination. He then resorted to treating her as a hired domestic, giving her the most difficult kitchen tasks and subjecting her to a position lower than his hired help.

Mariam sank into a deep sense of desolation and desperation. She turned to her younger brother, Boulos. She wrote a letter to her brother inviting him to come and see her in Alexandria. In her isolation from her uncle’s family she turned to a Muslim domestic to have him deliver her letter to Nazareth. The young man encouraged Mariam to reveal her personal troubles. He became outraged at her uncle’s treatment of her and played upon the mind and feelings of the young girl. He introduced conversion to Islam as a remedy to Mariam’s problems. His words and actions focused young Mariam directly upon her Christianity. Her realization of the young man’s true intentions stiffened her will. She denied his advances and loudly proclaimed her faith in the Church of Jesus. “Muslim, no, never! I am a daughter of the Catholic Apostolic Church, and I hope by the grace of God to persevere until death in my religion, which is the only true one.

Her so-called protector, furious at being rejected by this little Christian became violent. Eyes flashing with hatred he lost control and kicked her to the floor. He then drew his sword and slashed her throat. Thinking her dead he dumped her bloody body in a nearby dark alley. It was 8 September 1858. What followed was a strange and beautifully moving story, told years later by Mariam to her Mistress of Novices at Marseilles, France. “A nun dressed in blue picked me up and stitched my throat wound. This happened in a grotto somewhere. I found myself in heaven with the Blessed Virgin, the angels and the saints. They treated me with great, kindness. In their company were my parents. I saw the brilliant throne of the Most Holy Trinity and Jesus Christ in His humanity. There was no sun, no lamp, but everything was bright with light. Someone spoke to me. They said that I was a virgin, but that my book was not finished. When my wound was healed I had to leave the grotto and the Lady took me to the Church of St. Catherine served by the Franciscan Friars. I went to confess. When I left, the Lady in Blue had disappeared.” Years later when in ecstasy, on September 8, 1874, the feast of our Lady’s nativity, Sr. Mary said, “On this same day in 1858, I was with my Mother (Mary) and I consecrated my life to her. Someone had cut my throat and the next day Mother Mary took care of me.”


[...]


Little Mariam Baouardy, now known as Sister Mary of Jesus Crucified, was professed on 21 November 1871 as a Carmelite Religious. Prior to that action she was subjected to severe supernatural adversities. [b]One of the most terrible was diabolic possession for a period of 40 days.[/b] She persevered in her simple child-like faith in God the Son and His Holy Mother Mary. Her rewards were those reserved for the most privileged of humans. She was fixed with the stigmata of her crucified Savior, experienced levitations, transverberations of the heart, knowledge of hearts, prophecies, possession by the Good Angel, and facial radiance. Again and again she would say, “Everything passes here on earth. What are we? Nothing but dust, nothingness, and God is so great, so beautiful, so lovable and He is not loved.”
[url="http://www.melkite.org/sa33.htm"]http://www.melkite.org/sa33.htm[/url]

Edited August 26, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1282861555' post='2163707']
Indeed! Lots of unpleasant truths come out. Even ones that have been confessed. I read (I think it was in Malachi Martin's book, [i]Hostage to the Devil[/i]) that a priest who didn't believe in the whole "exorcism" thing was standing in the back of the room watching with his arms folded, and not praying as he was supposed to have been. The demon wrenched around and said, "He doesn't believe in me, but he sure believes in [i]women[/i], yes indeed!" The priest turned bright red and left the room.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
I read the same story, so I think it must have been in one of Fr. Amorth's books.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Thanks for the quote, Sternhauser.

[Selah]

[quote]Do demons often lie? [/quote]

Why would they claim to be humans? That's what I can't understand. Why not just say, "I possessed cain and I possessed the cursed priest"?

[Selah]

A double post, but:

If you are interested, her story is on youtube. Just type in "Exorcism of Annaliese Michel" and it should come up. It's in Polish I believe, but there is one floating around with subtitles.

Let the viewer decide:


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTdCGE6lNfs[/media]

Part one. There are 6 in all.

What a sweet woman her mother is. In the videos Annaliese tells her Priest that she wants to suffer for others, so I can see she had a good heart, but I don't know if I thought she was possessed...I don't think we can know for sure. Her priests and the church as a whole was schismatic, after all...*shrug*

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1282869559' post='2163774']
Why would they claim to be humans? That's what I can't understand. Why not just say, "I possessed cain and I possessed the cursed priest"?
[/quote]

Selah,

Which would a demon prefer? To deceive the priest into thinking allegedly possessed person is simply putting on an act or is schizophrenic, thereby causing the priest to leave the possessed person to the care of psychiatrists, or to be demonologically correct and give the priest more reason to believe it was a case of genuine demonic possession? The demon wants its actual presence to be unrecognized and thus unmolested. If lying can achieve that lack of recognition, it will lie.

~Sternhauser

Edited August 27, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1282864688' post='2163724']
Thanks for the quote, Sternhauser.
[/quote]

Much welcome.

~Sternhauser

[Selah]

Maybe she was possessed. But, do you also believe that Mary and Jesus visited her and asked her to endure suffering so that others could be saved? If so, why? If not, why not?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree yet, I'm just curious.