Anneliese Michel Aka Emily Rose

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
I was doing some reading up on the Anneliese Michel possesion case. I'm sure at least a handful of you guys saw that movie as well. I didn't think this was really Open Mic stuff, so I posted it here instead.
Ok, so. Anneliese was German. Several Germans revere her as holy, because she recorded having visions with Our Lady, and Jesus. She offered up her possesion for wayward priests. And of course, there are arguements in magazines that covered her story that a person who was possesed cannot be a saint at the same time. I don't think that is the case. Demonic possesion is only permissable, I think, when a person gives consent of the will, and God allows it. Correct me if I'm wrong... And it's recorded that Our Lady offered to take her to Heaven if she wanted, or leave her on earth to continue to make reparation for sinners. Anneliese chose the latter, willingly.
So, in that case. I am inclined to think that Anneliese was a holy person who allowed such things to happen to her, as the ultimate penace for sinners and wayward priests. What do ya'all think?

[Selah]

I don't know, really. i've read a lot about her life, and honestly....it may have been a mental illness. She seemed very nice and kind, but if you listen to the accounts, she is being possessed by evil people, not demons (hitler, etc) which, if I am not mistaken, is not possible in Catholic belief, correct?

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1282530822' post='2161757']
I don't know, really. i've read a lot about her life, and honestly....it may have been a mental illness. She seemed very nice and kind, but if you listen to the accounts, she is being possessed by evil people, not demons (hitler, etc) which, if I am not mistaken, is not possible in Catholic belief, correct?
[/quote]

In the movie, the demons that were possessing her where those that had possessed others such as Judas Iscariot and Cain in the Bible. They were not human souls. I believe it was the same with Annaliese Michel although it has been awhile since I've read her biography.

[Selah]

Okay, I totally didn't mean to say Hitler >_< (would have been impossible, given the time frame, lol)

That is what the movie said, yes, but the actual recordings of the exorcism say, "I am Cain, I killed my brother!" "I am a cursed priest, I dealt with my priestly duties so badly" and so on.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Selah

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
I read from a few sources those two thoughts. I can't figure if it was the demons who had possesed the people, or the people themselves.

[Nihil Obstat]

Who was arguing that a person suffering from possession cannot be canonized? That's completely bogus.

[Tridenteen]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1282532197' post='2161780']
Who was arguing that a person suffering from possession cannot be canonized? That's completely bogus.
[/quote]


JMJ
Can't remmeber the article. I didn't agree with any of the woman's arguements. Really nutty

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Tridenteen' timestamp='1282527807' post='2161730']
JMJ
I was doing some reading up on the Anneliese Michel possesion case. I'm sure at least a handful of you guys saw that movie as well. I didn't think this was really Open Mic stuff, so I posted it here instead.
Ok, so. Anneliese was German. Several Germans revere her as holy, because she recorded having visions with Our Lady, and Jesus. She offered up her possesion for wayward priests. And of course, there are arguements in magazines that covered her story that a person who was possesed cannot be a saint at the same time. I don't think that is the case. Demonic possesion is only permissable, I think, when a person gives consent of the will, and God allows it. Correct me if I'm wrong...[/quote]

Tridenteen,

Fr. Gabriele Amorth, Rome's chief exorcist (at least at one time) said that many canonized saints had been outright possessed, through absolutely no fault of their own. Fr. Malachi Martin, on the other hand, also at one time Rome's chief exorcist, says that no one can be possessed without themselves opening the door to it. (He may have been speaking only of cases of perfect possession, but I don't believe that he was.) Who to believe? I don't know. I'd like to believe Fr. Amorth is right, as many saints were demonically obsessed, certainly, and their sanctity was never put into question. It would seem that physical possession would be an even more difficult trial for a saint to bear, in part because it might cause others to judge them rashly and uncharitably.

I know that after a group of Catholic acquaintances of mine saw the movie "Exorcism of Emily Rose," it certainly prompted then to start having conversations about a lot of theological questions. I was just happy to see a movie that portrayed priests in a halfway positive light.

~Sternhauser

Edited August 23, 2010 by Sternhauser

[goldenchild17]

I loved that movie actually. Though from what I have read it doesn't portray the story accurately at all. A different take on it, but still a pretty well done movie as far as I can tell. I don't know what to think about the girl herself, but its interesting.

[Katholish]

I feel fairly confident in saying that there are no examples of a canonized saint who has gone through the modern process who had actually been possessed by a demon at some point in their life. Certainly demonic oppression has occurred in numerous cases, but possession? Theologically speaking, it seems that actual possession requires some form of consent of the will of the one possessed (even if they didn't fully understand what they were doing).

Certainly a possessed person can be healed and if they consented to the possession could repent of that sin and be saved. However, I would suspect that the Church, on prudential grounds, would not canonize a person who had been possessed.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1282532197' post='2161780']
Who was arguing that a person suffering from possession cannot be cannonized? That's completely bogus.
[/quote]
It really depends on the size of the cannon.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1282689958' post='2162634']
It really depends on the size of the cannon.
[/quote]
Careful. My cannonizer is pointed right at your house.

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
[size="7"][size="4"]3 [/size][size="5"]2[/size]1 FIRE!!!![/size]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1282531217' post='2161762']
Okay, I totally didn't mean to say Hitler >_< (would have been impossible, given the time frame, lol)

That is what the movie said, yes, but the actual recordings of the exorcism say, "I am Cain, I killed my brother!" "I am a cursed priest, I dealt with my priestly duties so badly" and so on.
[/quote]

Do demons often lie?

~Sternhauser

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
They never know truth.
Actually, that's a neat point. William Biersach wrote a book with vampyrs in it. He considers the vampyr to the lowest form of demonic posession. At the one point, when Fr.Baptist is makiing ready to dump a volley f holy water on it, the creature ffers to tell him where the soul of his deceased wife (she died, and then he became a priest) is. Fr.Baptist is tempted, but explains to his friend that demons can't tell the truth, and don't know what it is, and therefore he couldn't trust what he would be told, anyways.