Reconciling Evolution & Faith

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1282711651' post='2162814']
I am not saying that, in truth, God is not involved in the everyday working of His Creation; I am saying that science, by its definition, cannot test/prove supernatural causes, and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural. A good scientist cannot confirm or deny anything that is not testable. A good scientist will not refute creationism and/or intelligent design; he will simply be able to tell you it is not within the realm of science

edit for typo
[/quote]

I'm not saying that you are. I'm merely telling you how Darwinian Theory is practiced in real life by a majority of the scientists who embrace that pseudo scientific dogma. The thought alone of a intelligent designer is forbidden.

Edited August 25, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[sixpence]

K of C, I think we agreed on something hooray!

the problem is, how can scientist, who are personally theistic [b]justify[/b] teaching their [b]belief[/b] in the possibility of God's hand in things in science classes, with no science to back it up? You can do it in philosophy and theology class, not in biology.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1282713579' post='2162837']
K of C, I think we agreed on something hooray!

the problem is, how can scientist, who are personally theistic [b]justify[/b] teaching their [b]belief[/b] in the possibility of God's hand in things in science classes, with no science to back it up? You can do it in philosophy and theology class, not in biology.
[/quote]

There are sciences that assume a intelligent designer or cause, based on clear evidence of a intelligence using ones intelligence in some cases. Archeology, forensics, etc. But even the thought of a intelligent designer in Darwinian Theory is denied. Why? Because it is to be purely naturalistic, and random, no God, no creator.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282713896' post='2162838']There are sciences that assume a intelligent designer or cause, based on clear evidence of a intelligence using ones intelligence in some cases. Archeology, forensics, etc. But even the thought of a intelligent designer in Darwinian Theory is denied. Why? Because it is to be purely naturalistic, and random, no God, no creator.[/quote]Could you please name one science that as a premise assumes "[i]God[/i]" did it? I'm not sure if I would trust that sort of forensic investigator, if I get brutally murdered, I hope they will have the sense to not just dismiss it as "[i]another demonic home invasion made to look like a burglary[/i]".

Edited August 25, 2010 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1282714710' post='2162840']
Could you please name one science that as a premise assumes "[i]God[/i]" did it? I'm not sure if I would trust that sort of forensic investigator, if I get brutally murdered, I hope they will have the sense to not just dismiss it as "[i]another demonic home invasion made to look like a burglary[/i]".
[/quote]

There are some things only an intelligence can do. Funny I thought you believed that God was behind evolution, and the others here that backed Darwinian Theory. Strage that you should look at the evidence and say that life came from God. But then state what you have just stated above.

I hope that a Christian Scientist if he did believe in Darwinian Theory would look at the evidence and see an intelligence as the cause of origins, rather than a purely naturalistic non-intelligent cause of origins.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282715201' post='2162841']There are some things only an intelligence can do. Funny I thought you believed that God was behind evolution, and the others here that backed Darwinian Theory. Strage that you should look at the evidence and say that life came from God. But then state what you have just stated above.

I hope that a Christian Scientist if he did believe in Darwinian Theory would look at the evidence and see an intelligence as the cause of origins, rather than a purely naturalistic non-intelligent cause of origins.[/quote]Strange that REAL Catholic Scientists like Father George Coyne, a prestigious Scientist of the Catholic Church, when considering ideas like Intelligence Design have this to say: "[i]Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be. If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science.[/i]" Even stranger that in his observation most Catholic Scientists would somehow be agreement with this assessment.


So BASICALLY what your saying is that we can't listen to the modern church that proposes there is no contradiction between the Catholic faith and the modern theory of evolution, we can't listen to Catholic Scientists who hold some of the most prestigious scientific positions in the Church, and we most certainly cannot listen to the consensus of the scientific community regarding the Theory of Evolution...

So WHO exactly do you want Catholics to listen to, if not to their Church or their Scientists, whom?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1282716357' post='2162844']
Strange that REAL Catholic Scientists like Father George Coyne, a prestigious Scientist of the Catholic Church, when considering ideas like Intelligence Design have this to say: "[i]Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be. If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science.[/i]" Even stranger that in his observation most Catholic Scientists would somehow be agreement with this assessment.


So BASICALLY what your saying is that we can't listen to the modern church that proposes there is no contradiction between the Catholic faith and the modern theory of evolution, we can't listen to Catholic Scientists who hold some of the most prestigious scientific positions in the Church, and we most certainly cannot listen to the consensus of the scientific community regarding the Theory of Evolution...

So WHO exactly do you want Catholics to listen to, if not to their Church or their Scientists, whom?
[/quote]

Sorry but if any Catholic believes in God they believe in Intelligent Design of some sort.

Edited August 25, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282716488' post='2162845']
they believe in Intelligent Design of some sort.
[/quote]

This is not really contrary to what we have been saying. But so far the "of some sort" you have been talking about was "total and completeintelligent design, with no evolution"

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1282716834' post='2162846']
This is not really contrary to what we have been saying. But so far the "of some sort" you have been talking about was "total and completeintelligent design, with no evolution"
[/quote]

Catholics/Christians who believe in God and in Darwinian theory believe in some sort of Intelligent Design. A great deal of this thread is devoted to Christians trying to prove just that, that Darwinian theory can be part of a theory of Intelligent Design.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282717121' post='2162847']
Catholics/Christians who believe in God and in Darwinian theory believe in some sort of Intelligent Design. A great deal of this thread is devoted to Christians trying to prove just that, that Darwinian theory can be part of a theory of Intelligent Design.
[/quote]

soooo, why has that been a problem?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1282716488' post='2162845']Sorry but if any Catholic believes in God they believe in Intelligent Design of some sort.[/quote]Maybe the terminology you are reaching for is "[b][u]theistic evolution[/u][/b]". Because Father George Coyne's consideration on "intelligent design" is exactly what the Catholic Church, courts of law, educational institutions, and the scientific community has deemed it. A religious movement attempting to present creationism as science. It is not possible to be scientific because creationism and intelligent design start with the premise of a creator, science is NOT inductive, it is chiefly deductive.

Curiously Father George Coyne publicly criticized throughout his profession different people, including Bishops, for attempting to advance a sort of pseudo-science such as creationism or intelligent design. Never was he censored, penalized, or was there the consideration that he was not "Catholic". So your telling me Catholics MUST believe in some kind of Intelligent Design but faced with actual Catholic Scientists who don't, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

So to put it simply, you believe in Intelligent Design and you think other Catholics should too... the only hitch in your argument is, Catholics don't have to.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

Catholics cannot believe in Naturalism it is condemned as heresy and error. If Catholics are to believe in Darwinian theory that theory must be adapted to support an Intelligent Creator.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1282717342' post='2162849']
Maybe the terminology you are reaching for is "[b][u]theistic evolution[/u][/b]". Because Father George Coyne's consideration on "intelligent design" is exactly what the Catholic Church, courts of law, educational institutions, and the scientific community has deemed it. A religious movement attempting to present creationism as science. It is not possible to be scientific because creationism and intelligent design start with the premise of a creator, science is NOT inductive, it is chiefly deductive.

Curiously Father George Coyne publicly criticized throughout his profession different people, including Bishops, for attempting to advance a sort of pseudo-science such as creationism or intelligent design. Never was he censored, penalized, or was there the consideration that he was not "Catholic". So your telling me Catholics MUST believe in some kind of Intelligent Design but faced with actual Catholic Scientists who don't, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

So to put it simply, you believe in Intelligent Design and you think other Catholics should too... the only hitch in your argument is, Catholics don't have to.
[/quote]

[mod]misunderstanding... no foul - MIKolbe[/mod] The Church has not official declared Intelligent Design to be religious in nature, atheistic or otherwise closed minded Darwinian theorist have, who never understand or want to understand the actual theory of ID. Because they have made Darwinian Theory Dogma that cannot be questioned. Again the Church has made no official condemnation of ID do not state falsehoods, do not make the words of one priest Official Catholic Teaching when it is not.

God Bless.

Edited August 25, 2010 by MIkolbe