LoveConquersAll Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 So, tonight I had dinner with my extended family, and after we finished arguing about politics, some people decided to argue about religion (note: all in attendance are born-and-raised Catholics), and I mentioned how my dad likes to get me mad about religion so he says stuff like, "The Gnostic Gospels were just discluded because the bishops wanted power, blah blah blah." He doesn't really mean it, but he likes how easy it is to push my buttons... Anyway, my grandfather (who is a permanent deacon and therefore is very Catholic) started arguing along the same lines as my dad (also to push my buttons), and gave me the Infancy Narrative of James and the Gospel of Thomas (both Infancy Narrative and Sayings). He wants me to read them and then be prepared to argue why they weren't allowed. Before I started reading them, I thought I'd get some opinions and facts on the gnostic gospels (particularly Thomas and James). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='LoveConquersAll' timestamp='1281923301' post='2157923'] So, tonight I had dinner with my extended family, and after we finished arguing about politics, some people decided to argue about religion (note: all in attendance are born-and-raised Catholics), and I mentioned how my dad likes to get me mad about religion so he says stuff like, "The Gnostic Gospels were just discluded because the bishops wanted power, blah blah blah." He doesn't really mean it, but he likes how easy it is to push my buttons... Anyway, my grandfather (who is a permanent deacon and therefore is very Catholic) started arguing along the same lines as my dad (also to push my buttons), and gave me the Infancy Narrative of James and the Gospel of Thomas (both Infancy Narrative and Sayings). He wants me to read them and then be prepared to argue why they weren't allowed. Before I started reading them, I thought I'd get some opinions and facts on the gnostic gospels (particularly Thomas and James). [/quote] It is a narrow-minded and unscrupulous assertion to maintain that each book which was excluded from the New Testament canon found itself blacklisted as a mere ecclesiastical power play. From my reading, canonicity of scripture was decided by the bishops (who as Catholics we believe were acting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) upon certain criteria. Among these criteria were catholicity (universality) of usage, apostlicity (that is the authorship could be traced to an Apostle or a direct companion of an Apostle), orthodoxy (that is the content of the letter of gospel did not contradict widely held theological views within the Church), and ancientness (that is that it was actually written within the Apostolic period before the close of the 1st century). I think any fair-minded person would agree that these are reasonable criteria upon which an early episcopal authority based their decisions regarding which books would make it into the New Testament. Again, a fair historical analysis of the gnostic gospels reveals that they are easily excluded by these criteria. End of discussion. Edited August 16, 2010 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 One of the reasons the Gnostic gospels were excluded is that the Gnostics weren't really Christian. They had some really strange beliefs about multiple gods and the soul being all good and the body being all bad. Just kookie stuff. One of the ways a document was discerned to be worthy of inclusion in the Canon is the fruits of the gospel. Actually read something like the Gospel of Thomas, and then ask yourself if the Jesus portrayed in it is the Jesus you know in your heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1281925012' post='2157931'] They had some really strange beliefs about multiple gods and the soul being all good and the body being all bad. Just kookie stuff. [/quote] Multiple gods and dualism are the least of their kookieness. Don't forget about the 'fragmentation' of the "Good" god by the "Evil" god YHWH who created the physical world to trap the pieces of the "Good" god...and the "Good" god's subsequent dissemination as light into the bodies of those destined to be saved through secret gnosis as they triumph over the evil material world as Jesus the messenger of the "Good" god taught them to do. And apparently all those other people who don't have a piece of the divine spark and requisite gnosis in them are just brutes destined for nothingness. I think that gives a better sampling of the heterogeneous mix of beliefs contained within the 'gnostic' mythos. Edited August 16, 2010 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveConquersAll Posted August 16, 2010 Author Share Posted August 16, 2010 Oh my goodness...that definitely sounds way weird. I've skimmed Thomas, and the weirdest thing I saw would have to be: "114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." ...hmmm...a bit odd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' timestamp='1281925840' post='2157936'] Multiple gods and dualism are the least of their kookieness. Don't forget about the 'fragmentation' of the "Good" god by the "Evil" god YHWH who created the physical world to trap the pieces of the "Good" god...and the "Good" god's subsequent dissemination as light into the bodies of those destined to be saved through secret gnosis as they triumph over the evil material world as Jesus the messenger of the "Good" god taught them to do. And apparently all those other people who don't have a piece of the divine spark and requisite gnosis in them are just brutes destined for nothingness. I think that gives a better sampling of the heterogeneous mix of beliefs contained within the 'gnostic' mythos. [/quote] I'm still on summer vacation, and didn't want to think too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1281928725' post='2157983'] I'm still on summer vacation, and didn't want to think too hard. [/quote] Med school started back up for me...I can't stop thinking hard anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) Weren't they written a few hundred years after Jesus's time? This is as opposed to the accepted Gospels, which are much closer to home, so-to-speak. So that alone removes quite a lot of authority from the Gnostic Gospels. Btw, I have a few family members, too, who like to say things to get a reaction or to sound "profound." All they do is make me roll my eyes. Edited August 16, 2010 by Lounge Daddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='LoveConquersAll' timestamp='1281926149' post='2157940'] Oh my goodness...that definitely sounds way weird. I've skimmed Thomas, and the weirdest thing I saw would have to be: "114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." ...hmmm...a bit odd... [/quote] That is so spectacularly awesome. I just don't know what to say, except... hopefully HCF doesn't have to see this kidding. perhaps. yes yes I am. Edited August 16, 2010 by goldenchild17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 I would tell them you will read the gnostics AFTER they read the 4th session of Trent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wikitiki Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 The Gnostic gospels are like really, really bad fan fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 If you read the gnostic works you can easily see they do not conform with authentic gospels, although a line or two may have been properly remembered. They were recognized as spurious for very good reasons that have not changed with the passage of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Gnostics believe in salvation through knowledge. This is incompatible with Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 knowledge of God cannot be learned...it can only be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='LoveConquersAll' timestamp='1281926149' post='2157940'] Oh my goodness...that definitely sounds way weird. I've skimmed Thomas, and the weirdest thing I saw would have to be: "114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven." ...hmmm...a bit odd... [/quote] a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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