Abortion And Other Political Issues

[BeenaBobba]

Hi Crusader,

Laws aren't based on any one religion but on the natural moral law. Murder is against just about all major world religions, but it also happens to be against the natural moral law. It is because of the latter that it is rightly made illegal.

The reason we pro-lifers are so against abortion is because it is murder -- and we don't believe that murder should be legal under any circumstance. Things such as legalized murder have far-reaching consequences for all of society, and it's for that reason that it is our right and even our duty to stand up for the preborn.

Since marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman, and since the family has been and is the foundation of society, redefining this would also have far-reaching effects on all of society. And because of this, we who are against gay "marriage" have every right and again, even a duty, to stand up for marriage and for the family.

I wrote why I am against gay "marriage" in a previous thread, so you can check that out if you'd like.

God bless,

Jen

Edited April 17, 2004 by BeenaBobba

[JP2Iloveyou]

I kind of glanced at this thread, but it got me thinking. Many people have asked what a Catholic is to do come November. Bush, Kerrey, or someone else? I am absolutely baffled how some people can equate social justice issues with intrinsic moral evils such as abortion, euthanasia, cloning, and stem-cell research.

Actually, in all seriousness, would someone, anyone, please show me a church document saying that it is the role of the government to provide assistance to the poor? Certainly, that is needed, and all people have a right to basic necessities of life, but it is my understanding that the Church teaches that it is the role of the laity to help the poor, not the role of government.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Apr 17 2004, 06:15 PM'] ...but it is my understanding that the Church teaches that it is the role of the laity to help the poor, not the role of government. [/quote]
What is the goverment but a powerful group of lay persons?

Come Nov, what is a Catholic to do? Read about the people running, read the voting guide put out by the USCCB, and VOTE, based on who will do the most for ALL the causes of the Church. Peace (war pres=Bush), abortion (death pres=Kerry), death penelty (death pres=Bush), social justice (anti help pres=Bush), anti-use of aborted fetus for science (bad pres=Kerry).

Hows about Bush, who canceled the federal aid to abortion clincs around the world, and gave us a 1.5 (miniamal) Trillion dollar tax cut, spends that money not on tax breaks and war but on funding pro-life things around the world. India has a big problem with women finding out they are carrying a female child and aborting becuase a female can't care for the family or support them. Oh about Bush starts to oppose free trade, a policy that leads to poverty and depression everywhere, esp with states like China.

[Iacobus]

Defending Kerry is not easy, if it is at all possible. However, defending Bush is defending a man who runs counter to many goals of Catholicism.

[CreepyCrawler]

But the difference is that if we elect Bush, WE can actually do something about social justice issues; at a grass-roots level AND at a governmental level because it's not like people are going to pass some amendment or a supreme court ruling saying that welfare and medicaid is unconstitutional. If Kerry is elected, I am 99% sure that any anti-abortion laws will be struck down in a manner that makes it impossible for us constituents to do something about it.


As for the whole thing about women aborting female children, that has more to do with the culture's heavy emphasis on males (especially in rural areas where men ARE somewhat more beneficial in an agricultural setting) as well as the influx of Western ideas about birth control and devaluing children than it has to do with international aid coming to them. I agree it would be nice if we helped out people in other countries, but I kind of prefer to be able to give to specific charities than programs who aim to 'help' women not have more children or decrease gender-biased abortions by giving them birth control or other governmental programs that totally stink. (did that make sense? it's a run-on)

[crusader1234]

to beenabobba and others: just before you get confused i'm also heavily anti abortion. but, if youve ever been in debate you'll know somethign. you cannot debate on religious points. the government cant reasonably pass a law based on religion. you have to give sound issues (although the reason religion is aginast abortion has a lot of reasons so yuo can use those). also, this thread wasnt supposed to be about gay marriage either. it is about bush and kerry though. i think both of them are [expletive deleted] heads. lol. kerry had my full support then he pulls this abortion stuff, oh wow hes changed a lot since MTV statred interviewing him a while back.

[Iacobus]

crusader1234, I am just like you. This vote won't be fun at all.

[crusader1234]

I live in Canada. Unfortunately, you guys are bigger. We risked being turned into a pariah for not ganging up on Iraq... but whatever. Whatever you guys do affects us so I pray that by some fluke (both of them go into a coma until after elections maybe?) Clinton gets to be president again. At least we never had to deal with your government as much before. With Bush it seemed like he was picking fights with the whole world and trying to find out which countries would be his goons. Im kind of proud Chretien backed down. A catholic saying no to someone who went against the UN. He's not a perfect leader but that made me respect him a whole lot more.

[Shawn_H]

"With Bush it seemed like he was picking fights with the whole world and trying to find out which countries would be his goons. Im kind of proud Chretien backed down. A catholic saying no to someone who went against the UN. He's not a perfect leader but that made me respect him a whole lot more."

For condemning the Iraqi people to continue to be oppressed by one of the most murderous and genocidal dictators in the world? Why is that something to be proud of? Children as young as 2 years old were tortured and worst in special childrens prisons that Saddam's regime set up. Sometimes this horrific abuse of children was deliberaltely done in front of their own parents to force them to name anti-Saddam dissidents.. And Chretien, by refusing to join the coalition, by default wanted this to continue.

Sorry to use strong langauge, but he was a dispicable coward. Exactly what leaving little children to continue to be tortured and murdered has to do with being Catholic is beyond me. To me it just shows a total lack of moral courage.

And so what about going against the U.N? This is an organisation that does more to promote abortion than any other in the world. Did God set up the U.N.? Does it have some kind of devine mandate to tell other countries what to do, or what not to do? For decades the U.N. has been promoting anti-Catholic secular morality/

People seem to forget that the U.S. suffered the worst ever attack upon its people on Sept.11, and this is what Bush is fighting against. Countries that dont support us in this fight are by default supporting Islamic terrorism.

Thankfully the new Canadian Prime Minister seem to understand this.

[JP2Iloveyou]

my last post didn't get posted for some reason. Oh well, no worries. I agree with Shawn_H. He hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it better.

Also, why do people always bring up the death penalty? Since the 1970s, exactly two people have been executed under the federal death penalty. That is a far cry from the thousands killed every day by abortion. Even if you want to go all the way back to when Bush was governor of Texas, it doesn't prove much since the executive branch in Texas is very limited in what it can do in penal law. In any event, the Church isn't even 100% opposed to the death penalty and to portray it as such is simply incorrect.

Now regarding taxes and helping the poor. I hope you all realize that the more money the government confiscates from you in higer taxes to "help the poor" is more money that is being funneled down some rat hole and hopelessly wasted when it could be doing so much more good by letting private citizens help the poor, or, God forbid, a rich businessman hiring a new employee! OK, I'm being sarcastic, but seriously. The more we pay in taxes, the more the government is going to give to groups like unPlanned Parenthood, the radical homosexual lobby, the arts, which mock the Church and the Blessed Virgin, and sex-education programs in the public schools which hand out free condoms and tell kids exactly how to have the most "fun" possible with the least risk. Personally, I'd gladly take giving less of my money to these "programs" even if it meant less money for the poor. These are goods that can more efficiently be provided by the private sector.

[Iacobus]

[quote] I hope you all realize that the more money the government confiscates from you in higer taxes to "help the poor" is more money that is being funneled down some rat hole[/quote]
Rat hole like the Dept of Defense and halibeutron?


[quote]much more good by letting private citizens help the poor, or, God forbid, a rich businessman hiring a new employee![/quote]
One problem. If Bill Gates wants a new programmer and his company has MANY billion dollars on hand, will a $5000 rebate make him hire?

[quote]The more we pay in taxes... the arts, which mock the Church and the Blessed Virgin[/quote]
How so? When has PBS mocked the Church or Mary? Give proof.

[quote]Personally, I'd gladly take giving less of my money to these "programs" even if it meant less money for the poor.[/quote]
You mean DoD. THE BIGGEST GOVERMENT DRAIN?

[Shawn_H]

The taxpayer funded welfare state has actually created more pverty, not less. It helps to create an addictive dependence mentality in people that robs them of their self-reliance. Private charity is a positive good, because it generally does a better job of targeting the genuinely needy, and by being limited in scope, but state tax funded welfare helps in creating an immoral society. Moreover, it increases the power and influence of the liberal state which is at war with Christianity.

[Shawn_H]

"You mean DoD. THE BIGGEST GOVERMENT DRAIN?"

Defense is a legitimate function of government. In fact the state has only 4 legitimate functions: Justice (the law and courts), Police (to enforce the law), Defense (to defend against foriegn aggressors) and Border Control (to maintain the integrity of the nation).

Welfare is the responsibilty of the church and private citizens.

Remember the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. What can be done at the private and local sphere should be done there. Centralising all power and all responsibility in the state destroys this principle.

"How so? When has PBS mocked the Church or Mary? Give proof."

If I dont watch PBS, why should I be forced to pay for it? And PBS does have a left wing/liberal bias. Why should I be forced to pay for the enemies propaganda?

Edited April 18, 2004 by Shawn_H

[Iacobus]

Art is a vitial thing to society. You may not agree with that but it has been shown to be very important and refelctive.

How does welfare ruin the roles of the Church? Is there a line in the CCC or Canon Code that says if the goverment makes attmepts to aid the poor the Church can no longer try?

DoD, has a huge budget. And that money is being spent on an unjust war.

[Shawn_H]

" Art is a vitial thing to society. You may not agree with that but it has been shown to be very important and refelctive. "

But art does not need state funding. Artists should be able to support themselves, or get grants from private citizens. There is no need for state funded art, and I should not be forced to fund art I dont agree with. If some of that art is blasphemous and attacks the Catholic Church, and some of it has been, then it is wrong to force Catholics to fund it through taxation. Let people have the choice to fund or buy the art they want, not force them to hand over hard earned money in tax that could be spent on art they like and agree with, or on their childrens education or health care.

"How does welfare ruin the roles of the Church? Is there a line in the CCC or Canon Code that says if the goverment makes attmepts to aid the poor the Church can no longer try?"

Charity is the responsibility of private citizens and civil society such as charities and churches, not the role of the state. State welfare gives the state too much power and is generally inefective and wasteful. Moreover state welfare, unlike private charity, erodes the moral responsibility of citizens.

"DoD, has a huge budget." Yes. But defense is a necessary and legitimate function of the state, so that budget is justified.

"And that money is being spent on an unjust war."

No. Its being spent on a just war. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq is a war in direct response to the horrific attack upon the United States on Sept.11 by terrorists and their state funders. Iraq under Saddam helped to fund terrorism.

Edited April 18, 2004 by Shawn_H