Gay And Interracial Marriage

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='yoda' timestamp='1286511748' post='2178480']
God has created us each individually. Although I dont "enjoy" seeing two members of the same sex kissing or along those lines I still believe some people were born that way. Some feel as if they cant escape it, so why should they be alone all their life if they long for someone? It is unfair to cast them out as 'sinful', they could be leading a normal catholic life better then you are. We shouldnt make them feel like any less of a person, im sure some are already battling with that feeling. We are taught to accept and treat others as we wish for them to do to us. If they are not affecting you in any way why should gay marraiges be banned?
[/quote]
If you are catholic, you believe that God makes the rules, not us.
One of His rules is any sex between a man and a woman (or any combination thereof) outside of a marriage is a a sin. period. Its not a negotiation, suggestion etc, its a rule. So a union between any two same sex couples is a sin. You may be uncomfortable with that truth, but that doesn't change it. We cannot say any sin is acceptable just to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Klaudi87' timestamp='1287084891' post='2179612']
Its kinda hard to take the poll given that the constitution was not founded on catholic beliefs thus alot of things can be concidered constitutional are totally non--catholic
[/quote]

Agreed. The poll can't make up its mind whether it should be viewed legally, politically, or morally. So, depending on which approach you take, you might give different answers. Some people have viewed it as a state's rights question rather than a human rights question.

[Winchester]

It's a dairygirl poll. What do you expect?

[OraProMe]

The fact that you view gay sex as immoral shouldn't really come into the equation. Catholics believe homosexual acts are immoral and that the state shouldn't sanction immorality. I just wish that's what people would say rather than making up all these pseudo-arguments about gay marriage being bad for society or whatever. The state doesn't (or at least shouldn't) make decisions from a religious viewpoint. While Catholics are certainly allowed to be involved in politics the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as a whole should not influence legislation in a LIBERAL democracy.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Klaudi87' timestamp='1287084891' post='2179612']
Its kinda hard to take the poll given that the constitution was not founded on catholic beliefs thus alot of things can be concidered constitutional are totally non--catholic
[/quote]

This.

[Winchester]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1287094226' post='2179641']
While Catholics are certainly allowed to be involved in politics the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as a whole should not influence legislation in a LIBERAL democracy.
[/quote]
Since this isn't a liberal democracy, it doesn't matter.

But even if it did, it does come into the equation for Catholics. We can never set aside our Catholicity.

[Klaudi87]

[quote name='Resurrexi' timestamp='1281068423' post='2153107']
Guys, I think that what we need to do is to be accepting and inclusive of all different people, no matter what their lifestyles are. Isn't that what Buddha and Mohammad would do? We need to be a united force against all homophobia and discrimination, or else the forces of tolerance and communal sharing will be impeded from spreading to all countries throughout our environmentally endangered planet.


[/quote]

HAHA...very humorous

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1287094983' post='2179648']
Since this isn't a liberal democracy, it doesn't matter.

[/quote]


This is just plain wrong. America is a liberal democracy. You even have a bill of rights. I'm a 19 year old foreigner so if I know this then so should you.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/liberal_democracy.htm
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/339037/liberal-democracy
[i]
"But even if it did, it does come into the equation for Catholics. We can never set aside our Catholicity."[/i]

That's my point, the liberal democratic character of the state comes before any "Catholic" character of the state. In fact if the state had a "Catholic" character then it wouldn't be secular (or constitutional). Any catholicity in American politics should only come from the beliefs of certain individuals involved in the political architecture, Catholicism or Catholic morality (gay sex is wrong) has no inherent place in the politics of a secular, liberal and democratic country like America. Its presence should only be due to the fact that the country has a representative form of government and thus represents the interests and values of a portion of its population (Christian) who are free to vote for candidates who share their opposition to homosexuality. However, even then, the democratic nature of the state must be subject to the liberal character of the state. The dictatorship of the majority is not a good thing.

Impose catholic morality on catholics, fine. But you can't legislate something that finds its basis in religious morality for the entire population without infringing on the principle of the separation of Church and State.

If you don't like gay marriage then don't get one, basically.

Edited October 15, 2010 by OraProMe

[Winchester]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1287137109' post='2179726']
This is just plain wrong. America is a liberal democracy. You even have a bill of rights. I'm a 19 year old foreigner so if I know this then so should you.
[/quote]
Republic.

Political buzzwords are inexact.



[quote][i]
"But even if it did, it does come into the equation for Catholics. We can never set aside our Catholicity."[/i]

That's my point, the liberal democratic character of the state comes before any "Catholic" character of the state. In fact if the state had a "Catholic" character then it wouldn't be secular (or constitutional). Any catholicity in American politics should only come from the beliefs of certain individuals involved in the political architecture, Catholicism or Catholic morality (gay sex is wrong) has no inherent place in the politics of a secular, liberal and democratic country like America. Its presence should only be due to the fact that the country has a representative form of government and thus represents the interests and values of a portion of its population (Christian) who are free to vote for candidates who share their opposition to homosexuality. However, even then, the democratic nature of the state must be subject to the liberal character of the state. The dictatorship of the majority is not a good thing.

Impose catholic morality on catholics, fine. But you can't legislate something that finds its basis in religious morality for the entire population without infringing on the principle of the separation of Church and State.

If you don't like gay marriage then don't get one, basically.
[/quote]
You apparently don't understand what I've said. I'll chalk that up to being a 19 year old foreigner.

And in a true democracy, tyranny of the majority is laudable.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Winchester

[OraProMe]

Whether a country is a republic or a monarchy doesn't make a difference. Both our countries are liberal democracies even though yours is a republic and mine a constitutional monarchy. Liberalism is the political philosophy that emphasises the inalienable rights of the individual. You do have a bill of rights, right? Democracy means elected and representative government. You do have elections, right?

Of course you know all this, you're just too proud to admit that you're wrong.

I'll take the lack of substance in your post as an indication of the lack of substance in your position. Get back to me when you actually want to address my points rather than side step them.

Edited October 15, 2010 by OraProMe

[Winchester]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1287142652' post='2179738']
Whether a country is a republic or a monarchy doesn't make a difference. Both our countries are liberal democracies even though yours is a republic and mine a constitutional monarchy. Is it really that hard for you to admit that you're wrong?[/quote]
Are you saying there is a right and wrong?

You could have explained your perspective and the use of your terms. You chose snark. So my position and perspective stands and we remain a democratic republic.

[quote]I'll take the lack of substance in your post as an indication of the lack of substance in your position. You don't live in a theocracy so if you want to start conforming politics to religious principles then you're going to have to change the entire system, including some of the key principles that both of our countries are built upon.

Get back to me when you actually want to address my points rather than side step them.
[/quote]
Again, you don't understand the argument. I think you're blinded by your opposition to theology because it doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy about yourself.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Winchester

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1287143149' post='2179739']
Are you saying there is a right and wrong?

You could have explained your perspective and the use of your terms. You chose snark. So my position and perspective stands and we remain a democratic republic.
[/quote]

Does America have elections? If so it's democratic.
Does America have a bill of rights? If so it's liberal.

If you need the terms explained to you then you shouldn't be in a conversation about politics. Just for fun democracy refers to elected and representative government. Liberalism refers to the political philosophy that individuals are endowed with certain inalienable rights. Sound familiar?

[quote]
Again, you don't understand the argument. I think you're blinded by your opposition to theology because it doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy about yourself.
[/quote]

If you actually believe that then you wont mind explaining where I'm wrong rather than attacking my person or my approach to theology (which frankly you know nothing about. If I only liked theology that made me feel warm and fuzzy then I would have stopped posting on phatmass about 12 months ago).

Edited October 15, 2010 by OraProMe

[Winchester]

[quote name='OraProMe' timestamp='1287145239' post='2179742']
Does America have elections? If so it's democratic.
Does America have a bill of rights? If so it's liberal.[/quote]
If you wish to be inexact, then that's fine.

If you equate words with reality, that also works.
[quote]
If you need the terms explained to you then you shouldn't be in a conversation about politics. Just for fun democracy refers to elected and representative government. Liberalism refers to the political philosophy that individuals are endowed with certain inalienable rights. Sound familiar?
[/quote]
The terms depend upon the context. One may lump the US (according to its founding documents) into a broad group of liberal democracy. However, one may also deny that the US is a democracy, since it is a republic. One may also argue that it is not a democracy because it is a representative democracy (again, according to its documents).

Referring to the UK or Australia as liberal is asinine. Neither country seems particularly interested in individual liberty, nor do they seem to view (in practice of power) the individual as possessing rights which the state protects. They are essentially totalitarian states which view the citizens as possessions.

Can one truly claim a state is liberal if it regulates marriage?


[quote]
If you actually believe that then you wont mind explaining where I'm wrong rather than attacking my person or my approach to theology (which frankly you know nothing about. If I only liked theology that made me feel warm and fuzzy then I would have stopped posting on phatmass about 12 months ago).
[/quote]
Can't take what you dish out, eh?

Edited October 15, 2010 by Winchester

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1287149802' post='2179754']
Since this isn't a liberal democracy, it doesn't matter.
[/quote]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1287149802' post='2179754']

The terms depend upon the context. One may lump the US (according to its founding documents) into a broad group of liberal democracy.
[/quote]

Thank you for finally admitting what you first denied out right. Namely that the US is a liberal democracy.


[quote]
Can't take what you dish out, eh?
[/quote]
Actually I'm still waiting for you to dish out something of substance. So far you've denied that America is a liberal democracy, I've had to explain to you that it is, you've accepted that America is a liberal democracy ("according to its founding documents") and you've asked me to define two terms for you that I learnt in my year 10 politics class.

I pointed out that you avoided answering my question by attacking my approach to theology. You respond by saying "can't take what you dish out, eh?". I'm done being petty and arguing with you over the blatantly obvious. I honestly believe you're too intelligent to continue with the side stepping and you're not one of my high school students so I'm not going to waste any more time explaining why a country with elections is democratic or a bill of rights is liberal. For the third time, Winchester, if you want to address my original points and explain what exactly it is I don't understand about your argument then please do that. I've been waiting for a while now. However if you want to continue with the ad hominems or Politics theory lessons from a 19 year old then I'm done.

God Bless

Edited October 15, 2010 by OraProMe

[CatherineM]

The United States is a Republic. A true democracy is where every person has a vote on every issue. That would be quite difficult with the present complexity of government. A republic is where we elect people to vote for us, and hope they will represent us well. There is a dramatic difference. In a democracy, the animosity in government caused by party representation would be eliminated. Special interest groups wouldn't be able to "finance" their interests into a majority vote over the desires of the majority of citizens.