Dead Giveaways (Of A Linguistic Nature)

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Tridenteen' date='04 August 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1280978251' post='2152454']
JMJ
There is a wonderful thing called Google. A real marvel of out times. I think most people are more than capable of googling a phrase that thhey do not understand. That is what I do when corresponding with people who do not speak englsih fluently and ned a phrase in their language translated into mine. I am also thinking that poeople who don't speak Latin who find this might think "Wow, that looks cool, wonder what it means." Then they might get interested in looking into the Latin Mass. I know there are several people here who don't really care for the TLM, but someone who might come back to the Church or into the Church via the TLM... and who are we to deny them that chance?
[/quote]

The ironic thing is that I'm not fond of the NO, but think I would like the TLM.

But, I made my point. Some people will agree, some people will disagree. That's normal and expected, and I can live with that.

It's also hot and humid, which, at least for me, doesn't bring out the best in me.

Note: In case anyone cares, I never called KofC a liar. I honestly thought he originally made a typo, and I have told him that. As far as I can tell, KofC and I are fine with each other now. He and I will probably (almost) always see things differently, but that's why it's a discussion board.

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
Yes, I understand what you mean. A guy we knew was a protestant, and he was very fond of the TLM...he seemed to like all of the scripture in it, and thought that in some ways it was living scripture. And AMEN! to the hot and humid, I turn into robot nanny on sundays when it is hot and humid, and the fan is broken... (no a/c!)...cranky unleashed!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='04 August 2010 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1280978924' post='2152462']
Seriously guys? Its no secret that KoC and i dont always get along, but ONE latin word that is like a single letter away from being the english word, is worth all this arguing? Dont any of you have jobs or spouses you could be complaining about?

yeesh.
[/quote]

The REALLY ironic thing about all this is that I originally got on KofC's case, not because of using Latin, but because I thought he wasn't owning up to a typo, and that he was using Latin so he wouldn't have to admit to making a mistake. KofC says that it wasn't a typo, and meant to use Latin in the first place, and I believe him. I think lots of us got more heated than the subject deserved, and like a game of "telephone," as the thread moved on, the misunderstandings escalated.

I have nothing against Latin per se--I would have reacted the same if it were Hindi or Portugese. My theory of writing is that the writer should try to write in such a way that ALL of his or her words are understandable to any reader for whom English is their native language. For example, to me, in a thread about Latin, using Latin phrases would make perfect sense, but in this case, it FELT like "showing off" to me. (I also hate it when Dorothy Sayers writes long passages of her mystery books in French with no translation, and I don't know French.)

KofC says he wasn't showing off, and felt that his use of Latin in this context was fine. He and I have different theories of writing, and probably always will. Every writer has his or her own theories of writing, and even professional writers disagree. I think KofC and I are fine with each other now.

I let my temper get out of control because it's hot and humid out, although that's not a good excuse. I wrote a heated note that started this off (although ironically, in the posts just before, I was trying to make a joke that clearly fell flat). I wish things hadn't escalated after that, but they did.

BTW--Jesus_LOL, I have neither a job nor a spouse (nor a life, for that matter). And, while your humor almost always works, mine just as often falls flat, as it did tonight.

If we can learn something from all this, if only to try not to jump to conclusions (about the only exercise I get), then this thread won't have been totally for nothing.

BTW--I can tell a Catholic when they say S'tr (which Catholic school kids apparently do, at least in Chicago) rather than saying the full word "Sister," or "Sister X."

Edited August 5, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Old_Joe]

Mike Rowe servicing a bell on a Catholic Church at 6 PM. Not really linguistic but still a dead giveaway:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJEFeveR6UU[/media]

[ardillacid]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='04 August 2010 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1280978510' post='2152458']
This is the kind of thread that reminds me that this Phatmass is not the same website I joined on 22 July 2007.
[/quote]
Yes, back in the golden year of '07 when nobody ever had bitter disagreements and all was sunshine and rainbows...how I long for those days

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='04 August 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1280981726' post='2152480']
BTW--Jesus_LOL, I have neither a job nor a spouse (nor a life, for that matter). And, [b]while your humor almost always works, [/b]mine just as often falls flat, as it did tonight.
[/quote]







my warning log, the mods and several other PMer's would disagree with you there


[quote name='notardillacid' date='04 August 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1280984053' post='2152507']
Yes, back in the golden year of '07 when nobody ever had bitter disagreements and all was sunshine and rainbows...how I long for those days
[/quote]

ah yes. back then my car ran on happy thoughts and puppy dog smiles

[Vincent Vega]

I'm not one for simulacrum, but if you would look me in the eye and say there not a thing has changed over the past three years, and that there hasn't been an awful lot of bickering and pettiness, and circular and repetitive posts, topics, and debates lately, then you are reading different forums than I.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='04 August 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1280984680' post='2152513']
awful lot of bickering and pettiness, and circular and repetitive posts, topics, and debates
[/quote]

frankly, this is about all i can remember seeing when i first joined in 06

[Vincent Vega]

That's because that was T-1 year to the glory day.
Duh.

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 August 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1280984680' post='2152513']
I'm not one for simulacrum, but if you would look me in the eye and say there not a thing has changed over the past three years, and that there hasn't been an awful lot of bickering and pettiness, and circular and repetitive posts, topics, and debates lately, then you are reading different forums than I.
[/quote]

No but there has been (and there is every once in a while) as of late a group of people that think that Phatmass is about them and that needs to change.

I will say it again, I think that the random use of latin is not inviting to others. If KofC, tridenteen, and others think that it is the best way to promote Catholicism, that's great. I suggest y'all start your own website and speak as much latin as you want. Now some might say its not my site either and this is true. But there have been more people who have asked you to stop than there are who are following the practice and your response has been "Google it". Which is tantamount to "I don't care what you think".

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 August 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1280984680' post='2152513']
I'm not one for simulacrum, but if you would look me in the eye and say there not a thing has changed over the past three years, and that there hasn't been an awful lot of bickering and pettiness, and circular and repetitive posts, topics, and debates lately, then you are reading different forums than I.
[/quote]

Try Vocation Station. We get along pretty well. Not perfectly, but it's usually pretty peaceful there.

However, we can't invite you to join the Phatmass Phemale Community because you are male. The guys can start their own religious community. We'll invite you to play cards with us, as long as you promise not to cheat.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 August 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1280984680' post='2152513']
I'm not one for simulacrum, but if you would look me in the eye and say there not a thing has changed over the past three years, and that there hasn't been an awful lot of bickering and pettiness, and circular and repetitive posts, topics, and debates lately, then you are reading different forums than I.
[/quote]
Same situation just different faces.

[Luigi]

Well. I throw out an innocent little topic, walk away for a while, and I return to find carnage strewn all over the thread. Very interesting.

To summarize what we've learned about the original question:

1. I contributed the distinction between plain 'rosary' and 'rosary beads'; most people agree that 'rosary' is more common among Catholics but there may be some free variation there.

2. I contributed the 'Cathlic' vs. 'Cath-o-lic' distinction. Most people who mentioned it say 'Cathlic' although USAirwaysIHS uses the three-syllable variation; Iggy raised the interesting point that not ALL non-Catholics use the three-syllable version - that's probably true for all these distinctions, too. toledo_jesus attributes Dr. King's three-syllable pronunciation to King's dialect being southern and black, and to the formal enunciation required for public speaking; while I agree that all three could be contributing factors, it doesn't explain other people who also use the three-syllable approach - unless, of course, I'm hearing it only from southern people and/or black people and I just haven't noticed that commonality before. I must pay closer attention in future.

3. Long discussion about the pronunciation of Augustine. Part of the confusion arises, I believe, from the fact that there are two Sts. Augustine. St. Augustine of Hippo I have always heard referred to as St. AW-gus-teen; St. Augustine of Canterbury I have always heard referred to as St. a-GUS-tin. The difference may arise from the way British monks pronounce the name of the British Augustine - I've heard them speak of Augustine of Canterbury, but I haven't heard them speak of Augustine of Hippo, so I don't know if they pronounce then distinctly. In my dialect, the different pronunciations refer to different saints. (BTW, laetitia crucis quotes a certain Maeglin whom she unearthed using Google - I wouldn't trust her/his explanation because s/he uses the term 'antepenultimate syllable' to refer to the next to last syllable; in fact, the next to last syllable is the 'penultimate syllable' - a true 'antepenultimate syllable' is the third to last syllable. If Maeglin doesn't know that much (Latin I - any textbook you look at), then s/he may not know much more.

4. Tridenteen mentioned the confusion on the part of non-Catholics about terms of address for priests; Iggy picked up on that theme by mentioning the fact that many Catholics address women religious as 'St'r' instead of 'Sister.' So - confusion on the part of outsiders, abbreviated form on the part of insiders.

5. Terra Firma contributed differences in the use of 'St.' Iggy added the refinement that certain denominations - particularly Anglicans/Episcopalians and Lutherans often do use 'St.' before the names of apostles and Paul (setting aside the quibble as to whether the man Saul/Paul should be considered an apostle since he was not one of The Twelve - we wouldn't want to get off track or anything). Can we conclude that the more closely related a denomination is the Catholicism, the more likely they are to include 'St.' with an apostle's name? 'St.' could almost be classified as a term of address similar to Fr. and 'St'r' (see #4 above).

6. Terra Firma also contributed the term "set prayers," contending that Catholics use more of them and Protestants use fewer. I agree. I would refine this contribution by noting that linguists would call "set prayers" [b]frozen [/b]text - the words are always said in the same order. One advantage to the use of frozen text is that all those who are praying can particpate by reciting simultaneously - in the Protestant tradition of making-it-up-as-they-go-along, only one person at a time can say the prayers while others present sit in silent agreement (I guess). Catholics can also make it up as they go along, but it isn't the norm - at least not in a lot of situations. Catholics also typically name these frozen-text prayers by the first word or phrase of the prayer: the Memorare, the Gloria, the Agnus Dei/the Lamb of God, the Hail Mary, the Our Father (interestingly, when Iggy referred to this prayer, she called it the Lord's Prayer - Catholics have heard the term and may use it sometimes, but Protestants universally call it the Lord's Prayer), the Glory Be. We do have the Creed, Grace Before Meals, and a few other prayers that don't follow the pattern, but using the first few words as the title seems to be a very Catholic linguistic trait.

7. MarieTherese - rather late in the discussion, actually - brought up the express Our Father. That's a dead giveaway if ever I've heard one.

8. Staretz mentioned the use of 'Romanism' to mean 'Catholicism' and I would strongly agree. I have an Episcopal friend who consistently says 'the Roman Church' (in contrast to the Anglican Church, I guess).


So we have collected, in about twenty-four hours, eight linguistic (more or less) dead giveaways that a speaker is or isn't Catholic. Good job, group! Give yourselves a collective pat on the back for your linguistic insights.

Two minor points:
1. toledo_jesus maintains that "the British have a better grasp" on the English language. I'd not like this to turn into the bloody carnage that the use of Latin phrases caused, but I strongly disagree. The British certainly have a better grasp on the way THEY speak English, but they of course don't own the language - anyone who speaks it owns it, and that includes us Americans. We have a better grasp on the way we speak English.

2. In technical usage, impreachment is the process of charging a sitting president with crimes, malfeasance, etc. The trial itself determines the guilt or innocence of the man [i]after[/i] he has been impeached. He must be impeached, and then tried on the charges of impeachment. In common usage, people very frequently use impeached to mean "found guilty of some crime or malfeasance and driven from office," but it's technically incorrect.

And the question of Latin in the Catholic Church or on discussion boards? I think I'll let that completely alone.

For now.

[Luigi]

I overlooked the contribution of SacredMusicMan - that sometimes Catholics and no-Catholics use the same terminology but intend different meanings. He mentioned specifically 'devotions.' Sorry about that - my notes were rather illegible.

So our current total is 9 points of divergence instead of the 8 I originally posted.

[Fragments]

"in the Protestant tradition of making-it-up-as-they-go-along, only one person at a time can say the prayers while others present sit in silent agreement (I guess). "

As a mid way convert yep that's pretty much how it works!

Protestants tend to use prayer circles, one person leads and prays for large scale things, such as the flooding recently, or a new headmaster coming in. Anyone else can chime in with a seperate request after a short period of silence and everyone else listens to their prayer. The prayer being said is nearly always 'We pray to you Lord that*insert prayer*' If you look about most people are nodding etc and everyone says Amen at the end of each prayer together.

A little off topic, but relevant still I think!