Dead Giveaways (Of A Linguistic Nature)

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Luigi' date='05 August 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1280987377' post='2152527']
Well. I throw out an innocent little topic, walk away for a while, and I return to find carnage strewn all over the thread. Very interesting.

To summarize what we've learned about the original question:

1. I contributed the distinction between plain 'rosary' and 'rosary beads'; most people agree that 'rosary' is more common among Catholics but there may be some free variation there.

2. I contributed the 'Cathlic' vs. 'Cath-o-lic' distinction. Most people who mentioned it say 'Cathlic' although USAirwaysIHS uses the three-syllable variation; Iggy raised the interesting point that not ALL non-Catholics use the three-syllable version - that's probably true for all these distinctions, too. toledo_jesus attributes Dr. King's three-syllable pronunciation to King's dialect being southern and black, and to the formal enunciation required for public speaking; while I agree that all three could be contributing factors, it doesn't explain other people who also use the three-syllable approach - unless, of course, I'm hearing it only from southern people and/or black people and I just haven't noticed that commonality before. I must pay closer attention in future.

3. Long discussion about the pronunciation of Augustine. Part of the confusion arises, I believe, from the fact that there are two Sts. Augustine. St. Augustine of Hippo I have always heard referred to as St. AW-gus-teen; St. Augustine of Canterbury I have always heard referred to as St. a-GUS-tin. The difference may arise from the way British monks pronounce the name of the British Augustine - I've heard them speak of Augustine of Canterbury, but I haven't heard them speak of Augustine of Hippo, so I don't know if they pronounce then distinctly. In my dialect, the different pronunciations refer to different saints. (BTW, laetitia crucis quotes a certain Maeglin whom she unearthed using Google - I wouldn't trust her/his explanation because s/he uses the term 'antepenultimate syllable' to refer to the next to last syllable; in fact, the next to last syllable is the 'penultimate syllable' - a true 'antepenultimate syllable' is the third to last syllable. If Maeglin doesn't know that much (Latin I - any textbook you look at), then s/he may not know much more.

4. Tridenteen mentioned the confusion on the part of non-Catholics about terms of address for priests; Iggy picked up on that theme by mentioning the fact that many Catholics address women religious as 'St'r' instead of 'Sister.' So - confusion on the part of outsiders, abbreviated form on the part of insiders.

5. Terra Firma contributed differences in the use of 'St.' Iggy added the refinement that certain denominations - particularly Anglicans/Episcopalians and Lutherans often do use 'St.' before the names of apostles and Paul (setting aside the quibble as to whether the man Saul/Paul should be considered an apostle since he was not one of The Twelve - we wouldn't want to get off track or anything). Can we conclude that the more closely related a denomination is the Catholicism, the more likely they are to include 'St.' with an apostle's name? 'St.' could almost be classified as a term of address similar to Fr. and 'St'r' (see #4 above).

6. Terra Firma also contributed the term "set prayers," contending that Catholics use more of them and Protestants use fewer. I agree. I would refine this contribution by noting that linguists would call "set prayers" [b]frozen [/b]text - the words are always said in the same order. One advantage to the use of frozen text is that all those who are praying can particpate by reciting simultaneously - in the Protestant tradition of making-it-up-as-they-go-along, only one person at a time can say the prayers while others present sit in silent agreement (I guess). Catholics can also make it up as they go along, but it isn't the norm - at least not in a lot of situations. Catholics also typically name these frozen-text prayers by the first word or phrase of the prayer: the Memorare, the Gloria, the Agnus Dei/the Lamb of God, the Hail Mary, the Our Father (interestingly, when Iggy referred to this prayer, she called it the Lord's Prayer - Catholics have heard the term and may use it sometimes, but Protestants universally call it the Lord's Prayer), the Glory Be. We do have the Creed, Grace Before Meals, and a few other prayers that don't follow the pattern, but using the first few words as the title seems to be a very Catholic linguistic trait.

7. MarieTherese - rather late in the discussion, actually - brought up the express Our Father. That's a dead giveaway if ever I've heard one.

8. Staretz mentioned the use of 'Romanism' to mean 'Catholicism' and I would strongly agree. I have an Episcopal friend who consistently says 'the Roman Church' (in contrast to the Anglican Church, I guess).


So we have collected, in about twenty-four hours, eight linguistic (more or less) dead giveaways that a speaker is or isn't Catholic. Good job, group! Give yourselves a collective pat on the back for your linguistic insights.

Two minor points:
1. toledo_jesus maintains that "the British have a better grasp" on the English language. I'd not like this to turn into the bloody carnage that the use of Latin phrases caused, but I strongly disagree. The British certainly have a better grasp on the way THEY speak English, but they of course don't own the language - anyone who speaks it owns it, and that includes us Americans. We have a better grasp on the way we speak English.

2. In technical usage, impreachment is the process of charging a sitting president with crimes, malfeasance, etc. The trial itself determines the guilt or innocence of the man [i]after[/i] he has been impeached. He must be impeached, and then tried on the charges of impeachment. In common usage, people very frequently use impeached to mean "found guilty of some crime or malfeasance and driven from office," but it's technically incorrect.

And the question of Latin in the Catholic Church or on discussion boards? I think I'll let that completely alone.

For now.
[/quote]

Luigi--I thought your summing up was excellent. I learned a lot. Thank-you!

I had to laugh at myself when you noticed that I unconsciously called it "The Lord's Prayer" and not the "Our Father." I have obviously been hanging around WAY too many Prostestants! I even have a Rosary and call the larger beads the "Our Father" beads. (I've also been buying beads for a friend to make rosaries, and now am able to blithely say things like, "I need to find some more 8mm beads for the 'Our Father' beads.") However, I will make the caveat that my use of the term "The Lord's Prayer," doesn't mean that's what Anglicans say. I frankly don't remember whether the Anglicans call it the "Lord's Prayer" or the "Our Father." Between my "Anglican years" and now, I spent far too much time with Presbyterians, Baptists, and at least one denomination I can't remember the name of. So, I was reflecting mainstream Prostestant usage, but I have no clue what the Anglicans do. (And, neither does anyone else, but I'm finding more and more that I like it that way.)

For the record, that last line was a joke, making fun of ONLY myself--not making any kind of remark about anyone on Phatmass, the Archibishop of Canterbury, Mayor Daley of Chicago (we are permitted to limit ourselves to a small bow of the head when we say his name), or my cats, who are content to merely sit on my feet (yes, "on") and yell at me only when they want to be fed. I'm feeling silly today. It is cooler, and sunny, and my sister sent me new towels (which I badly needed) as a late birthday present. I have to wash the towels first, and then I might actually take a shower, something I know all of you will be grateful for. I will be using Dominican nun soap. It smells wonderful, and perhaps some of the holiness will rub off. Or help wash off my unholiness.

Luigi--Whatever else happened in the thread, you brought up an interesting topic, and got some enlightening answers.

Edited August 5, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='05 August 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1281033451' post='2152769']
I'm one of the mods (and my posts were not from a mod perspective, but as a non-Latin speaker) who made a post that didn't entirely embrace liberal use of Latin being bandied about the boards. I didn't insinuate that it should never be used, and I certainly never said it was exclusive. My exact words, more than once, were that it would be an [i]act of kindness[/i] for those quoting Latin to provide a translation. I didn't demand, or even particularly ask, I offered it as a [i]suggestion[/i]. I know you don't like your words being misconstrued, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.
[/quote]

You agreed with the Phatmass member who spoke out the most concerning Latin use, and that member explained that she felt "excluded" when Latin tidbits were used. I am not misconstruing anything. I am not even speaking about exact words, but that moderators in those threads agreed with those who felt alienated by Latin use.

I was also unaware that Latin is being "bandied about" Phatmass. I will keep my eyes open for it.

[sixpence]

Wow!! What is all this hostility going on???

I just want to share what I have gleaned from this... as someone fairly new to phatmass and unsure of where this Latin issue arose from:

The idea of using Latin in a Catholic phorum, seems similar to the idea of using Portuguese in a phorum meant for people to share ideas and discuss Brazil... there will be people who do not know the language even if they consider themselves ethnically Brazilian. I doubt that anyone would use the language as a way to exclude these people... (if they did it would be very rude) regardless, I can see how some people would feel left out. Also, [i][b]I do not see why any Latin-proponents would want to reject the opportunity to share their knowledge with others, if they feel that Latin is so important[/b].[/i][u]
[/u]
I have to agree with IcePrincess, that it would be very kind and considerate, and in the spirit of learning, if a translation could be given if any significant amount of Latin or any other language is used. I cannot understand what all the hostility is about.

Edit:
I think [i]tidbits[/i] should be defined as something that is Not essential for comprehending what is being expressed, and that it is not necessary to define it every time you say "pax" at the end of your post, for instance.

Edited August 5, 2010 by sixpence

[Nihil Obstat]

All right everyone, this issue is just not very hard. I'm sad that we still need to be talking about it.

Here's how it is:

[list]
[*]One should always write to address their audience. It should be, within reason, at the audience's level of understanding. This is common sense and common courtesy.
[*]The audience of this phorum is largely Latin rite Catholic.
[*]Therefore some use of Latin is perfectly acceptable and to be expected.
[/list]

So the question becomes exactly how much use of Latin is acceptable. That's easy too.

[list]
[*]Most people on Phatmass have a very low understanding of Latin, objectively speaking. We understand little common words and phrases like Pax, Salve, Benedicamus Domino, etc..
[*]Therefore it can generally be assumed that using these very short phrases and words is going to be ok. This is part of the 'common parlance' of Latin Catholics, and part of the Phatmass culture.
[/list]

As soon as we move away from the common words and phrases, that's where the understanding abruptly drops off. Therefore it would be inappropriate and all-around bad manners to have substantial parts of one's post in Latin, if a translation isn't provided (unless, obviously, the discussion itself is about a Latin passage, but this is not normal circumstances).

So the solution is as follows:
[list]
[*]Use simple Latin words and phrases if they are part of the Latin Catholic and Phatmass "common parlance". This is part of our culture.
[*]Provide translations when using any words or phrases that are less common or more lengthy than the average Phatmasser's level of knowledge.
[*]Provide translations if asked without argument in all circumstances, no exceptions.
[/list]



It's really simple. Seriously.

[sixpence]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 August 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1281036337' post='2152796']

[list][*]Provide translations if asked without argument in all circumstances, no exceptions.[/list][/quote]

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 August 2010 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1281035624' post='2152792']
You agreed with the Phatmass member who spoke out the most concerning Latin use, and that member explained that she felt "excluded" when Latin tidbits were used. I am not misconstruing anything. I am not even speaking about exact words, but that moderators in those threads agreed with those who felt alienated by Latin use.

I was also unaware that Latin is being "bandied about" Phatmass. I will keep my eyes open for it.
[/quote]

I said I agreed with many of her points. I also explained that I simply thought providing a translation was a [i]kind [/i]thing to do several times over. I was very precise in my wording. You are misconstruing.

"Bandied" was meant to be glib.

[cmotherofpirl]

There is nothing wrong with loving latin, there is something wrong with using it like a secret code to other people.
I don't have any problems with latin as long as you provide a translation with it. It may be the language of the Church but it is certainly not that of 99% of phatmassers or their guests. In fact I think a thread filled with common church latin sayings with translations would be beneficial to all, so why doesn't Rexi and KofC make one. In the mean time, please out of charity and courtesy afor the rest of us, translate as you go, just as you would when postying spanish, gaelic etc.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='05 August 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1281035437' post='2152790']
Luigi--I thought your summing up was excellent. I learned a lot. Thank-you!

I had to laugh at myself when you noticed that I unconsciously called it "The Lord's Prayer" and not the "Our Father." I have obviously been hanging around WAY too many Prostestants! I even have a Rosary and call the larger beads the "Our Father" beads. (I've also been buying beads for a friend to make rosaries, and now am able to blithely say things like, "I need to find some more 8mm beads for the 'Our Father' beads.") However, I will make the caveat that my use of the term "The Lord's Prayer," doesn't mean that's what Anglicans say. I frankly don't remember whether the Anglicans call it the "Lord's Prayer" or the "Our Father." Between my "Anglican years" and now, I spent far too much time with Presbyterians, Baptists, and at least one denomination I can't remember the name of. So, I was reflecting mainstream Prostestant usage, but I have no clue what the Anglicans do. (And, neither does anyone else, but I'm finding more and more that I like it that way.)

For the record, that last line was a joke, making fun of ONLY myself--not making any kind of remark about anyone on Phatmass, the Archibishop of Canterbury, Mayor Daley of Chicago (we are permitted to limit ourselves to a small bow of the head when we say his name), or my cats, who are content to merely sit on my feet (yes, "on") and yell at me only when they want to be fed. I'm feeling silly today. It is cooler, and sunny, and my sister sent me new towels (which I badly needed) as a late birthday present. I have to wash the towels first, and then I might actually take a shower, something I know all of you will be grateful for. I will be using Dominican nun soap. It smells wonderful, and perhaps some of the holiness will rub off. Or help wash off my unholiness.

Luigi--Whatever else happened in the thread, you brought up an interesting topic, and got some enlightening answers.
[/quote]

Thank you Iggy and Luigi for trying to keep this thread on topic.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='05 August 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1281036758' post='2152798']
I said I agreed with many of her points.
[/quote]

Yes, which I acknowledged in my post here. How that is "misconstruing" I do not know.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='05 August 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1281036801' post='2152799']In fact I think a thread filled with common church latin sayings with translations would be beneficial to all, so why doesn't Rexi and KofC make one. [/quote]
i think that would be a great idea, an education for all.

Benedicamus Domino? God bless?

[cmotherofpirl]

I also find many protestants pray "in Jesus name" without much reference to God.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 August 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1281036866' post='2152801']
Yes, which I acknowledged in my post here. How that is "misconstruing" I do not know.
[/quote]

Your comments indicate that "the moderators" agree with those posts or persons across the board. And that is simply not true.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='05 August 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1281037025' post='2152803']
I also find many protestants pray "in Jesus name" without much reference to God.
[/quote]

I have noticed that, too. They also speak a lot about The Lord (and again not much reference to God, and almost never, in my experience, the Holy Spirit).

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='05 August 2010 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1281035095' post='2152788']
Inheritably is not a word. Perhaps you could focus more on your English. I have a feeling that its part of your culture too

Rudeness is decided by those who feel its rude. Not the ones who commit it.

*edit

ok it is a word but you were actually looking for "inherently".
[/quote]

Yes, sorry sometimes I spell things incorrectly, or backwards. It happens to those who have had two major strokes in their early life. Having to relearn to talk, walk, and read twice after learning the first time in my has been a very heavy cross to carry. Sorry. Considering I think I do ok, learning bits of Latin is actually part of my growth. Latin is not offensive inherently or inheritably, I shall continue using single Latin words and small Latin phrases and out of charity if asked I shall gladly translate. If it's not important enough to ask it's not important enough to complain for pages and pages.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='05 August 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1281037088' post='2152805']
Your comments indicate that "the moderators" agree with those posts or persons across the board. And that is simply not true.
[/quote]

I agree, it would be very untrue for me to lump all the moderators into one category. That is why my comments have been focused on the moderators who participated in the thread that exploded into a debate over Latin use. Which is why I have been using phrases like "some moderators" (post 138) and "moderators in those threads" (post 152).