Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='05 August 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1281031693' post='2152743']
Sure is civilians acting like they know what they're talking about in here.

Psst no one cares anymore.

The same amount of people who get butthurt about gays joining are the same people who got butthurt about Women and Blacks. They'll get over it. You should too.
[/quote]
Actually many people do care, and if you come from the military or a military family you would or should or could know this.
It is in no way analogous to women or blacks.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='05 August 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1281039053' post='2152830']
Actually many people do care, and if you come from the military or a military family you would or should or could know this.
It is in no way analogous to women or blacks.
[/quote]


I've spent 8 years active duty in the United States Marine Corps. No one cares and it is exactly the same thing as letting blacks or women serve. Specifically blacks. Almost entirely the same issues.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='05 August 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1281042089' post='2152867']
I've spent 8 years active duty in the United States Marine Corps. No one cares.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, I had to. I really did.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='04 August 2010 - 07:19 AM' timestamp='1280863197' post='2151573']
If I was in the military, I wouldn't much care the orientation of the guy watching out for my butt on the front lines. And I in turn would watch out for his -- again, regardless.

Excuse the terminology.
[/quote]

I would be concerned if someone was watching my butt for sexual purposes in preference to my safety! In fact I would be peeved if someone was watching my butt without it being a safety issue.

When I was in the army there was virtually no privacy. For a modest person like myself I would find it extremely confronting to be sharing open showers and bedrooms with a gay person. Being a 'private' person it was confronting enough being with peers. It would be the same as women having a male share their showers and bedrooms when many women's modesty prevents them from sharing with other women. Gay people may be accepted in the Oz military, but in my time it would probably get you beat up and hounded out. Although it has been said that the army is a trap for collecting misfits who can't do anything else. (probably why I ended up there) the discipline and moral character of the better soldiers often either rubbed off or was beaten into them.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='06 August 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1281020929' post='2152602']
My daughter is about 5'2' and is a qualified sharpshooter, without the laser scope.
[/quote]

And such people are often more competent than larger persons. I think the height requirement has been dispensed with in OZ as far as the police force and so it should be.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 August 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1281042221' post='2152869']
I'm sorry, I had to. I really did.
[/quote]

You didn't! Did you? er what did you do?

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='05 August 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1281019594' post='2152590']
You do know the military is much more than shooting guns and hopping in and out of Jeeps? There are tons of desk jockey jobs.

Height requirements is one of a number of ways the military discriminates. Discrimination is not always a dirty word.


But a gay man could compromise the integrity of the military, on and off of the battlefield. For example, someone in intelligence could be blackmailed into handing over secrets. "Supply me the goods or your family back home finds out who you are." I know. There's a fix for that. Right? Just remove the social stigma of being homosexual, and families will accept with no qualms their homosexual sons and daughters. And isn't that the real reason opening the military to homosexuality is being pursued?
[/quote]


Just so you know, it's not just gay people who can be blackmailed. There are plenty of ways and instances of integrity being violated in the military.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 August 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1281042221' post='2152869']
I'm sorry, I had to. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif[/img] I really did.
[/quote]


Ms. Pirl asked specifically if I "was military or was in a military family." [mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod]

Edited August 10, 2010 by Lil Red

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='05 August 2010 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1281051781' post='2152918']
Just so you know, it's not just gay people who can be blackmailed. There are plenty of ways and instances of integrity being violated in the military.
[/quote]
So why introduce one more way?

Don't worry. We now know the left's strategy for getting what they want, like gays in the military. Declare serving in the military is a right and abuse the judicial system into getting what you want.

Homosexuality is a lifestyle and not the same as physical attributes like gender and race. I am sorry modern media, etc. has formed your opinion into what it is.

I would appreciate it if you avoid calling people like me, who believe the military is not a petri dish for social experiments, racist and misogynistic. It doesn't help your cause.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='05 August 2010 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1281051903' post='2152919']
Ms. Pirl asked specifically if I "was military or was in a military family." [mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod]
[/quote]
Do all marines have no sense of humour?

Edited August 10, 2010 by Lil Red

[Fragments]

I personally have no issue with homosexuals serving in the armed forced. I figure it's a job, if the problem is with homosexuals having a jobs in the publc view in general then maybe that's the wider issue. Seperate sexuality from ability to perform the task at hand, seems easier.

Also, as the question says 'openly gay' would that not then discriminate even between homosexual people, basically sending the message if you wish to tell people, you will lose your job. Seems it would just force people to hide their sexuality more and therefore numbers wouldn't actually change much.

Final point, I'm sure somone will have mentioned it, there is the theory that the personal want to keep their fellow soliders alive might actually aid battle tactics.

Anyway, opinion out there.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='apparently' date='02 August 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1280788147' post='2151122']
America is one of many countries that forbid openly gay people to serve in the military. Others are: [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/cuba/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Cuba[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/china/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]China[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/egypt/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Egypt[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/greece/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Greece[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/iran/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Iran[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/north_korea/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]North Korea[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/pakistan/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Pakistan[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/yemen/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Yemen[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/saudi_arabia/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Saudi Arabia[/url], Singapore, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/korea/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]South Korea[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/turkey/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Turkey[/url] and [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/venezuela/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Venezuela[/url].

See a pattern?

With a few exceptions, those are not countries where free people want to live.

By contrast, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/australia/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Australia[/url], the [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/uk/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]United Kingdom[/url], [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/israel/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Israel[/url], Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/france/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]France[/url], Germany, [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/italy/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Italy[/url], Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Slovenia and [url="http://realclearworld.com/topic/around_the_world/spain/?utm_source=rcw&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=rcwautolink"]Spain[/url] all allow gay people to serve.

No country has America's in-between policy: Gays can serve -- as long as no one finds out about it. Where did that come from?

[/quote]

Here here...

The Canadians have no problem with openly gay members of the military. [url="http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Canadian_military_hosts_first_gay_military_wedding"]Here[/url] is a description of a gay military wedding in Canada. Unfortunately, the original news reports are no longer available, so I have had to link to a Wikinews article, but the facts are accurate. I remember the event.

The event happened in 2005 and at the end of the article it states, "same-sex marriages are recognized and performed in seven provinces and one territory across Canada". Now same-sex marriages are recognized in all 10 provinces and all three territories in Canada.

Yes, I would rather live in any one of the second set of countries over any one of the first set.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 August 2010 - 02:08 AM' timestamp='1281071303' post='2153155']
Do all marines have no sense of humour?
[/quote]Ask anyone in the army:
M-A-R-I-N-E-S= Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not E-Sential

[Lumiere]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='05 August 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1281051219' post='2152914']
I would be concerned if someone was watching my butt for sexual purposes in preference to my safety! In fact I would be peeved if someone was watching my butt without it being a safety issue.

[/quote]

[url="https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf"]Here[/url] is an interesting study where they found that "...Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic
individual is either unaware of or denies." Men who were not homophobic were not aroused by homosexual videos.

If you feel threatened by the presence of homosexuals, perhaps you need to investigate this further in your own life.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lumiere' date='06 August 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1281107260' post='2153228']
[url="https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf"]Here[/url] is an interesting study where they found that "...Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic
individual is either unaware of or denies." Men who were not homophobic were not aroused by homosexual videos.

If you feel threatened by the presence of homosexuals, perhaps you need to investigate this further in your own life.
[/quote]
Feeling uncomfortable at being checked out by gay men is not homophobia. That word gets thrown around like it's going out of style. What a loaded term.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 August 2010 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1281108562' post='2153239']
Feeling uncomfortable at being checked out by gay men is not homophobia. That word gets thrown around like it's going out of style. What a loaded term.
[/quote]
Being obviously checked out by anybody can be uncomfortable, unless that is your goal.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='06 August 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1281108715' post='2153241']
Being obviously checked out by anybody can be uncomfortable, unless that is your goal.
[/quote]
I agree. More uncomfortable if it's someone of the same gender though, I think.