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Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?


Lil Red

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[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1280894021' post='2151875']
you didnt really address my response on how people find out about people with SSA. :)
[/quote]

I don't think that you were necessarily correct in the way you described people's finding out that their friend is gay. While it is true that there are some people I know whom others often suspect of having homosexual inclinations, that suspicion is irrelevant unless there is some substantial proof that the person in question truly is homosexual (e.g. it is know that the person has committed homosexual acts).

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[quote name='God the Father' date='04 August 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1280894665' post='2151881']
hahaha well that's quite a weight off my shoulders let me tell ya
[/quote]
I bet you get all the babes :mellow:

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[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 August 2010 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1280894508' post='2151880']
Basically, I think there is definitely precedent for tolerating heterosexual moral laxity (whether among soldiers or among the general populace) while forbidding homosexual acts and punishing those who commit them.
[/quote]

Agree

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[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 August 2010 - 04:28 AM' timestamp='1280888881' post='2151821']
Some sins are graver and more vile than others. Sodomy is one of the few that cry out to God for vengeance[/quote]

If I look for sins that cry out to God for vengeance in the Pius X's catechism it is not specifically mentioned Sodomy but "impure sin against nature".

Now, Somody surely is one of them, but is it the only one?
What about, for example, (hetero)sexual acts using condoms? Since it is against nature to prevent that fecondation can take place, is this an impure act against nature too?

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[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1280890816' post='2151843']
Of course there would be a problem. But on the flip side, there is a problem with those heterosexual men who flaunt their sexual escapades and use degrading language when talking about women. I am sure that plenty of heterosexual men do not appreciate such talk.
[/quote]
Sexual harassment in word or action is not tolerated in the military. If the heterosexual behaves that way, minor to severe action is taken. Sexual harassment is covered by a few articles of the UCMJ. They had us sit through sexual harassment sensitivity training almost annually.

I know some think discrimination is a dirty, but there is justified discrimination. To keep on topic, Winchester mentioned midgets. Did you know there are height requirements to get into the military? "But what's height got to do with shooting a gun?!" Oih. :rolleyes:

In regards to regulating morality, the military does and for good reason. Adultery is prohibited by the UCMJ, Article 134. You can be court martialed for it.

The military is not a petri dish for social experiments. Homosexual behavior does not belong in the military.

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KnightofChrist

[quote name='organwerke' date='04 August 2010 - 07:03 AM' timestamp='1280919812' post='2151952']
If I look for sins that cry out to God for vengeance in the Pius X's catechism it is not specifically mentioned Sodomy but "impure sin against nature".

Now, Somody surely is one of them, but is it the only one?
What about, for example, (hetero)sexual acts using condoms? Since it is against nature to prevent that fecondation can take place, is this an impure act against nature too?
[/quote]

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=29"]And the Lord said: The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha is multiplied, and their sin is become exceedingly grievous. I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know.[/url]

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Well I am pleased that the core group here basically agrees that persons with an homosexual orientation should not be admitted to the military. Good Ratzinger and Aquinas quotes. Gathering up information is good, because we have to fight this evil.

Maybe we should move on and start a new thread with the problem of the seminary, church positions, priesthood and the like. I am dead serious this is a severe and dumbfounding problem. I cannot even express how bad things are right now, at least in my area. I know from experience.

Edited by kafka
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[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1280890230' post='2151838']
I have a question. Concerning homosexuality, we emphasize the difference between homosexual inclinations (i.e. same-sex attraction) and homosexual sexual acts. In essence, we do not define the homosexual person as an individual ruled by his or her disordered sexual passions. That being a homosexual does not define them as a person. So why does it matter what type of sexual inclination they have, so long as they do their duty as soldiers? Obviously I am not saying that a person should parade around the barracks proclaiming their homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I just fail to see the relevance of an individual's sexuality in the military - unless, of course, the individual has a severe and dangerous fetish and or is prone to harassment.
[/quote]
a homosexual orientation in itself is a grave disorder of human nature. And the disorder is orientated toward acts which are intrinsically evil and gravely immoral, without exception. A person in the military has substantial responsibility, authority, leadership, all these require good moral character. Being a soldier is much more than pulling a trigger. A soldier or officer is faced with some of the most daunting moral decisions possible. And the psychological burden of modern warfare is incalculable. So a person has to be fit to take on this position. No one has an inalienable right to protect the entire country. This is a privilege, an honor, a sacred duty.

One with an orientation contrary to nature needs to be cured of his disorder before taking on a position in the military. If one truly loves one's country and himself, he will repent and do what is necessary to get help and get cured so he can be available to others as a whole, mature, ordered individual.

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[quote name='kafka' date='04 August 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1280955057' post='2152191']
Maybe we should move on and start a new thread with the problem of the seminary, church positions, priesthood and the like. I am dead serious this is a severe and dumbfounding problem. I cannot even express how bad things are right now, at least in my area. I[b] know from experience.[/b]
[/quote]
let me clarify this. I am not a homosexual nor have I ever committed homosexual acts. Rather I discovered a gay culture in several Catholic Churches where I live because of a job I recently took on, and I am not happy about it at all.

Edited by kafka
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[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 August 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1280954497' post='2152176']
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=29"]And the Lord said: The cry of Sodom and Gomorrha is multiplied, and their sin is become exceedingly grievous. I will go down and see whether they have done according to the cry that is come to me: or whether it be not so, that I may know.[/url]
[/quote]

Thank you for your answer, I forgot the person I was speaking to.
If you noticed, I didn't doubt Sodomy cries out to God for vengeance, I wondered if there are other impure acts against nature (such as pedofilia or using contraceptives) that too cry out to God for vengeance but I haven't still learned that on phatmass it is really hard to have answers to the questions.

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KnightofChrist

[quote name='organwerke' date='04 August 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1280957742' post='2152238']
Thank you for your answer, I forgot the person I was speaking to.
If you noticed, I didn't doubt Sodomy cries out to God for vengeance, I wondered if there are other impure acts against nature (such as pedofilia or using contraceptives) that too cry out to God for vengeance but I haven't still learned that on phatmass it is really hard to have answers to the questions.
[/quote]

No need to be rude, I did not doubt that you knew Sodomy cries out to God for vengeance. You did however seem to ask where it was taught that Sodomy cries out to God for vengeance. And if you click the link, the quote is also a link, it will give you other examples of sins that cry out to God for vengeance.

Edited by KnightofChrist
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God the Father

[quote name='kamiller42' date='04 August 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1280951976' post='2152137']
"But what's height got to do with shooting a gun?!" Oih. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

Without long enough arms, broad enough shoulders, and a minimum amount of body mass, the rifleman will be unable to proficiently steady the weapon, aim, and fire accurately. Without long enough legs, a combatant will probably not be able to move as quickly as necessary to perform his duty. With so low a vantage point, he will not be able to see over a jeep dashboard, over a watchtower railing, or over the next hill without inconvenient and costly accommodations. "Height" is a structural and physical attribute, therefore pertaining with some significance to a physical occupation such as mortal combat. Some classified ads will insist that applicants "must be able to lift 50 pounds." Rarely will a classified ad insist "applicants must like girls," because none of the position's accompanying duties have the slightest thing to do with liking girls.

If the military's job was to judge Miss America, I would be outraged if openly gay men were allowed to serve, whether they were sodomites or not. What on earth would an openly gay man know about the intriguing features a woman? Concisely, it would be inconceivable. If the military's job has nothing to do with the alluring qualities of females, then I guess it's not that big a deal. A gay man, unlike a midget, is not by definition physically unable to perform the duties of a serviceman, and that is obvious.

Edited by God the Father
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[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 August 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1280958074' post='2152244']
No need to be rude, I did not doubt that you knew Sodomy cries out to God for vengeance. You did however seem to ask where it was taught that Sodomy cries out to God for vengeance. And if you click the link, the quote is also a link, it will give you other examples of sins that cry out to God for vengeance.
[/quote]

Sorry if I was rude, but if I seemed to ask where it is taught etc. (I didn't) you seemed (to me) to answer to a doubt wether Somody really cries for vengeance or not. Anyway, sorry.

I read your link, I don't know exactly the source (who is the author?) but I think my question was not understood.
I start from the beginning.
I am not speaking of Homicide, or Oppression of Widows and Orphans etc.
I am only referring to "impure sin against nature" that, at least in the edition I have, I find as an answer (among the other ones: homicide, etc.) in the Pius X's catechism to the question: "Which are the sins who cry out to God for vengeance"?
I mean that in that catechism it is not mentioned Sodomy but in general "impure sin against nature" and this makes me think that there can be more than one impure sin against nature.
With impure sin it is obvious we are speaking about a sexual sin, but is it only Sodomy that cries out for vengeance (again: among sexual sins?)

An incest, such as, for example, a father who abuses of his daufghter, is this kind of sin (an impure sin against nature)?
A person who takes part in an orgy, is acting in this cathegory?
A person who uses contraceptive methods (that act against nature, since in nature the sexual act is open to fecondation) is in this cathegory?
How and where can I have authoritative answers to this question?

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KnightofChrist

There are only four sins that cry out to God for vengeance. But sodomy is not limited to 'homosexuality', and would seem to include incest, and any lust.

From the Douay Catholic Catechism of 1649

CHAPTER XX - The sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance

Q. 925. HOW many such sins are there?
A. Four.

Q. 926. What is the first of them?
A. Wilful murder, which is a voluntary and unjust taking away another’s life.

Q. 927. How show you the depravity of this sin?
A. Out of Gen. iv. 10. Where it is said to Cain “What hast thou done? the voice of the blood of thy brother crieth to me from the earth: now, therefore shalt thou be cursed upon the earth.” And Matt. xxvi 52, “All that take the sword, shall perish with the sword.”

Q. 928. What is the second?
A. The sin of Sodom, or carnal sin against nature, which is a voluntary shedding of the seed of nature, out of the due use of marriage, or lust with a different sex.

Q. 929. What is the scripture proof of this?
A. Out of Gen. xix. 13. where we read of the Sodomites, and their sin. “We will destroy this place because the cry of them hath increased before our Lord, who hath sent us to destroy them,” (and they were burnt with fire from heaven.)

Q. 930. What is the third?
A. Oppressing of the poor, which is a cruel, tyrannical, and unjust dealing with inferiors.

Q. 931. What other proof have you of that?
A. Out of Exod. xxii. 21. “Ye shall not hurt the widow and the fatherless: If you do hurt them, they will cry unto me, and I will hear them cry, and my fury shall take indignation, and I will strike thee with the sword.” And out of Isa. x. 1, 2. “Wo to them that make unjust laws, that they might oppress the poor in judgment, and do violence to the cause of the humble of my people.”

Q. 932. What is the fourth?
A. To defraud working men of their wages, which is to lessen, or detain it from them.

Q. 933. What proof have you of it?
A. Out of Eccl. xxxiv. 37. “He that sheddeth blood and he that defraudeth the hired man, are brethren,” and out of James v. 4. “Behold the hire of the workmen that have reaped your fields, which is defrauded by you, crieth, and their cry hath entered into the ears of the Lord God of Sabbath.”

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Thank you, this is exactly the information I was looking for!
I long for those cathechisms so brief and clear such this!

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