Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1280889045' post='2151825']
if you wanted to get a bit weird, if you gathered up all the people in the world who engage in sodomy, i bet the vast majority of them would be heterosexuals.
[/quote]

Sodomy is no less wicked when committed by Heterosexuals.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1280889125' post='2151827']
Sodomy is no less wicked when committed by Heterosexuals.
[/quote]

and you could probably count the number of heterosexual sodomizers kicked out of the military on one hand. and still have enough fingers left to signal the bartender for a few beers.

[God the Father]

[quote name='kafka' date='03 August 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1280888425' post='2151818']
I know.

state institutions are under the eternal moral law promulgated by God when he created human reason. The state is not over and above or separate from right and wrong, pursuing good, from moral principles, etc. as if they do not apply. Joining the military is not an inalienable right. It is a position which carries with it substantial responsibility, authority, and leadership. Those who hold such positions should have a good moral character. This is true in the fields of politics, education, law enforcement, medicine, psychology, and other similar fields. And this is not an unjust form of discrimination or bias, but merely the just discrimination between those fit for a position and those unfit.
[/quote]

If you're also suggesting that openly gay people should be disallowed from serving in the fields of politics, education, law enforcement, medicine, psychology, and other similar fields, I'm not sure how to argue with you.

I do not believe a good moral character is much of a help when it comes to pointing a rifle and shooting it etc. When issues of morality interfere with a serviceman's duties and the function of the unit, the military courts come into play, as they do with Catholics, protestants, buddhists, and athiests who act in a reprehensible manner.

Needless to say this has little or nothing to do with marriage, a religious institution that has nothing to do with serving one's country, earning a paycheck, or paying for college.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 11:29 PM' timestamp='1280888996' post='2151824']
What a sad day when Catholics defend the practice of sodomy in the militarily.
[/quote]

heck of an argument you got there, pal

Edited August 4, 2010 by God the Father

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1280889320' post='2151829']
and you could probably count the number of heterosexual sodomizers kicked out of the military on one hand. and still have enough fingers left to signal the bartender for a few beers.
[/quote]

Irrelevant. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cannot justly be practiced or allowed to be practiced by active members of a moral military.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1280889125' post='2151827']
Sodomy is no less wicked when committed by Heterosexuals.
[/quote]

Well actually it is since it is a disordered affection directed toward a person of the opposite sex rather than one of the same sex. Either way, though, it's a mortal sin [i]contra naturam[/i].

Edited August 4, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1280889466' post='2151831']
Irrelevant. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cannot justly be practiced or allowed to be practiced by active members of a moral military.
[/quote]

It may be irrelevant in a discussion of pure morality. but not in a discussion of public policy.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1280889576' post='2151833']
It may be irrelevant in a discussion of pure morality. but not in a discussion of public policy.
[/quote]

Morality must lead and be the foundation of public policy.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1280889729' post='2151836']
Morality must lead and be the foundation of public policy.
[/quote]

enforcing morality on only a small section of the public is unjust. even if the morality you are enforcing is correct.

first assumption being that Sodomy is immoral. second being that the government should enforce this morality as policy.

how ridiculous would it be if the military said "we will be kicking out all black sodomizers" ? yeah, sure you would say that it is bad for black people to commit sodomy, so enforcing it on them is completely moral. however, doing so, but letting the rest of the population continue doing the same acts unpunished is unjust.

and no i am not saying it is a racist policy, just used race as an analogous comparison.

[HisChildForever]

I have a question. Concerning homosexuality, we emphasize the difference between homosexual inclinations (i.e. same-sex attraction) and homosexual sexual acts. In essence, we do not define the homosexual person as an individual ruled by his or her disordered sexual passions. That being a homosexual does not define them as a person. So why does it matter what type of sexual inclination they have, so long as they do their duty as soldiers? Obviously I am not saying that a person should parade around the barracks proclaiming their homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I just fail to see the relevance of an individual's sexuality in the military - unless, of course, the individual has a severe and dangerous fetish and or is prone to harassment.

Edited August 4, 2010 by HisChildForever

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1280890230' post='2151838']
I have a question. Concerning homosexuality, we emphasize the difference between homosexual inclinations (i.e. same-sex attraction) and homosexual sexual acts. In essence, we do not define the homosexual person as an individual ruled by his or her disordered sexual passions. That being a homosexual does not define them as a person. So why does it matter what type of sexual inclination they have, so long as they do their duty as soldiers? Obviously I am not saying that a person should parade around the barracks proclaiming their homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I just fail to see the relevance of an individual's sexuality in the military.
[/quote]

I don't think that there is (or should be) any policy against those with homosexual inclinations that they do not act upon joining the military if they are not open about these inclinations. I think there would be a problem, though if the soldiers were flaunting their homosexuality, hitting on their fellow soldiers, or constantly discussing their same-sex lovers.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='03 August 2010 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1280890632' post='2151842']
I don't think that there is (or should be) any policy against those with homosexual inclinations that they do not act upon joining the military if they are not open about these inclinations. I think there would be a problem, though if the soldiers were flaunting their homosexuality, hitting on their fellow soldiers, or constantly discussing their same-sex lovers.
[/quote]

Of course there would be a problem. But on the flip side, there is a problem with those heterosexual men who flaunt their sexual escapades and use degrading language when talking about women. I am sure that plenty of heterosexual men do not appreciate such talk.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1280890187' post='2151837']
enforcing morality on only a small section of the public is unjust. even if the morality you are enforcing is correct.
[/quote]

No it isn't. Sodomites no matter if they be heterosexual, or 'homosexual' cannot serve in a moral military.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1280891219' post='2151845']
No it isn't. Sodomites no matter if they be heterosexual, or 'homosexual' cannot serve in a moral military.
[/quote]

but the law isnt against "sodomites", it is against "homosexuals". and there is the problem.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 11:06 PM' timestamp='1280891219' post='2151845']
No it isn't. Sodomites no matter if they be heterosexual, or 'homosexual' cannot serve in a moral military.
[/quote]

Then all sin must be eradicated if one is to serve in a moral military.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1280890230' post='2151838']
I have a question. Concerning homosexuality, we emphasize the difference between homosexual inclinations (i.e. same-sex attraction) and homosexual sexual acts. In essence, we do not define the homosexual person as an individual ruled by his or her disordered sexual passions. That being a homosexual does not define them as a person. So why does it matter what type of sexual inclination they have, so long as they do their duty as soldiers? Obviously I am not saying that a person should parade around the barracks proclaiming their homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I just fail to see the relevance of an individual's sexuality in the military - unless, of course, the individual has a severe and dangerous fetish and or is prone to harassment.
[/quote]

this is a good question. and for every person here on PM who hates it when "people let their homosexuality define them as a person"(probably one of the more common quotes on PM) but is ok with this law defining people by their sexual orientation, should probably mull it over a little bit.