Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[add]

as far as i know the Military is designed to kill and break things, as long as Gay people can do the task then i say let them have at it.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='lookingforfaith' date='03 August 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1280885816' post='2151778']
That would be small Winchester!
[/quote]

Mini winchester.

[God the Father]

[quote name='kafka' date='03 August 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1280881228' post='2151736']

And a homosexual orientation is much worse than an addiction to alcohol.

[/quote]

uh, that's awfully bold, and I'd know.

openly gay people should be allowed, in civil terms, whatever openly straight people are allowed

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='apparently' date='03 August 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1280885841' post='2151779']
as far as i know the Military is designed to kill and break things, as long as Gay people can do the task then i say let them have at it.

[/quote]

Moral depravity should still matter to Catholics.

[kafka]

[quote name='God the Father' date='03 August 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1280886792' post='2151797']
uh, that's awfully bold, and I'd know.

openly gay people should be allowed, in civil terms, whatever openly straight people are allowed
[/quote]
right including marriage of course.

Edited August 4, 2010 by kafka

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 August 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1280863197' post='2151573']
If I was in the military, I wouldn't much care the orientation of the guy watching out for my butt on the front lines. And I in turn would watch out for his -- again, regardless.

Excuse the terminology.
[/quote]

In the heat of battle perhaps, but before the fighting begins vile immorality should be weeded out. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cries out to Heaven and clamors to God for vengeance.

Edited August 4, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[God the Father]

[quote name='kafka' date='03 August 2010 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1280887046' post='2151802']
like marriage?
[/quote]

marriage is a religious institution infringed upon by the state which is why it's a difficult area. In a perfect world the state would have no business in it at all and there would be no argument. The military is a state institution which means it has no place discriminating.

you'll notice the apostrophe (appositive? not sure) "in civil terms" in the original post

"civil" meaning governmental or secular given that people of various religions are governed by the same body

Edited August 4, 2010 by God the Father

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='God the Father' date='03 August 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1280887476' post='2151810']
marriage is a religious institution infringed upon by the state which is why it's a difficult area. In a perfect world the state would have no business in it at all and there would be no argument. The military is a state institution which means it has no place discriminating.

you'll notice the apostrophe (appositive? not sure) "in civil terms" in the original post
[/quote]

But the Church rejects the separation of Church and State. Preventing 'homosexuals' to serve is not unjust discrimination.


“There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the consignment of children to adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or coaches, and in military recruitment” - Cardinal Ratzinger

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 August 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1280863197' post='2151573']
If I was in the military, I wouldn't much care the orientation of the guy watching out for my butt on the front lines. And I in turn would watch out for his -- again, regardless.

Excuse the terminology.
[/quote]

agreed.




[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1280886878' post='2151798']
Moral depravity should still matter to Catholics.
[/quote]




I think it would be good for the US military to expel all immoral people. all the gays, drunks, guys who talk about the girl back home they sleep with, liars, blasphemers, adulterers, guys/girls that lust, everyone.

then the canadian army could walk through, kill the 3 soldiers who managed to beat the morality lie detector test, and then we get to have hawaii and alaska!

Edited August 4, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 August 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1280883856' post='2151766']
I guess if you are a big-time statist, or at least a huge fan of government, there isn't much difference.



And at the risk of hijacking the topic, I have to point out something:

Anarchism [i]is[/i] libertarian. And I am not talking about anarchism in the derogatory sense of the word. I mean serious anarchism -- Dorothy Day, Mikhail Bakunin, Samuel Konkin, and Murray Rothbard, for a handful of examples.

Libertarianism is seeking as small a government as possible, and believe we are better served if we find solutions that are as voluntary as possible. They view the State as an inherently violent institution.

Party Libertarians think the political system can be used to bring about change from within the system.

"Small L" libertarians tend to look for other means, and believe that the party system is broken and a waste of time.

Anarchists have zero faith in the government, and think we should look to other institutions entirely. For example, many modern anarchists look to the Market.

And note that libertarian anarchism isn't about zero laws. And it's not about licentiousness, or being libertine. Actually many libertarians (anarchists included) argue that government actually tends to endorse licence, and diminish liberty. For example, abortion (you can do what you want, and the State will shield you from the result of your actions -- even pay for it with tax dollars; aka: stolen money.)

And I also wanna add that anarchists sometimes call small-government libertarians "minarchists." Get it? Like "mini-anarchists."

Ok, you may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
[/quote]

+1 Best off topic post I have seen in a while haha : )

[kafka]

[quote name='God the Father' date='03 August 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1280887476' post='2151810']
marriage is a religious institution infringed upon by the state which is why it's a difficult area. In a perfect world the state would have no business in it at all and there would be no argument. The military is a state institution which means it has no place discriminating.
[/quote]
I know.

state institutions are under the eternal moral law promulgated by God when he created human reason. The state is not over and above or separate from right and wrong, pursuing good, from moral principles, etc. as if they do not apply. Joining the military is not an inalienable right. It is a position which carries with it substantial responsibility, authority, and leadership. Those who hold such positions should have a good moral character. This is true in the fields of politics, education, law enforcement, medicine, psychology, and other similar fields. And this is not an unjust form of discrimination or bias, but merely the just discrimination between those fit for a position and those unfit.

A person with a homosexual orientation has a severe disorder of human nature, and is not fit for such a position. His nature is damaged and ordered toward that which is intrinsically evil. It is damaged. "the homosexual tendency is a defect, as when a person is lacking an eye or a foot," Cardinal Jorge Medina. And a significant number of homosexuals in any group or institution damages that group and makes it more difficult to them to act in accord with God's will, and in pursuit of justice, truth, goodness, etc.

Edited August 4, 2010 by kafka

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1280888231' post='2151815']
I think it would be good for the US military to expel all immoral people. all the gays, drunks, guys who talk about the girl back home they sleep with, liars, blasphemers, adulterers, guys/girls that lust, everyone.[/quote]

Some sins are graver and more vile than others. Sodomy is one of the few that cry out to God for vengeance, an army that allowed such wickedness would be cursed rather than blessed by God.


[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1280888231' post='2151815']then the canadian army could walk through, kill the 3 soldiers who beat the morality lie detector test, and then we get to have hawaii and alaska!
[/quote]

Isn't the term [i]Canadian Army[/i] a oxymoron?

Edited August 4, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[God the Father]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1280887254' post='2151806']
In the heat of battle perhaps, but before the fighting begins vile immorality should be weeded out. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cries out to Heaven and clamors to God for vengeance.
[/quote]

We're weeding immorality out of the United States military? I suppose Obama will love this, as it means a sharp reduction in defense spending. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cries out etc. Is it a given that an openly gay man also partakes in sodomy? Certainly it's likely, but let's say it's not a certainty because it is not a surefire deduction. A wiser church scholar than I can tell me: Is being openly gay a sin in and of itself?

An openly gay man seems only slightly more likely to be committing sodomy than an openly straight man is to be committing fornication/adultery. Should all of those immoral straight men be disallowed from serving in the military? Fornication is also a vile and wicked yadda yadda. I'd check with the defense department before handing down any concrete decision because by all indications their are LOTS of these heterosexual but shady characters in the armed forces.

In fact, I have it from a good source that a fair percentage of servicemen are not even Catholic, and even those who are MISS SUNDAY MASS with regularity! That is an awfully grave sin too, you know. But it might be unwise to remove these immoral soldiers from the ranks, lest we leave our nation in a vulnerable position.

I think if you asked the military's commanders what they thought about the statement: "before the fighting begins vile immorality should be weeded out," you might get some responses you're not counting on.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1280887254' post='2151806']But the Church rejects the separation of Church and State. Preventing 'homosexuals' to serve is not unjust discrimination.[/quote]

That may be true, but the State does not reject the separation of church and state, and given that the military is a taxpayer funded state concept, it's the state's opinion which would seem to hold the heavier hand.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='God the Father' date='03 August 2010 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1280888898' post='2151822']
We're weeding immorality out of the United States military? I suppose Obama will love this, as it means a sharp reduction in defense spending. Sodomy is a vile and wicked sin that cries out etc. Is it a given that an openly gay man also partakes in sodomy? Certainly it's likely, but let's say it's not a certainty because it is not a surefire deduction. A wiser church scholar than I can tell me: Is being openly gay a sin in and of itself?

An openly gay man seems only slightly more likely to be committing sodomy than an openly straight man is to be committing fornication/adultery. Should all of those immoral straight men be disallowed from serving in the military? Fornication is also a vile and wicked yadda yadda. I'd check with the defense department before handing down any concrete decision because by all indications their are LOTS of these heterosexual but shady characters in the armed forces.

In fact, I have it from a good source that a fair percentage of servicemen are not even Catholic, and even those who are MISS SUNDAY MASS with regularity! That is an awfully grave sin too, you know. But it might be unwise to remove these immoral soldiers from the ranks, lest we leave our nation in a vulnerable position.

I think if you asked the military's commanders what they thought about the statement: "before the fighting begins vile immorality should be weeded out," you might get some responses you're not counting on.



That may be true, but the State does not reject the separation of church and state, and given that the military is a taxpayer funded state concept, it's the state's opinion which would seem to hold the heavier hand.
[/quote]

What a sad day when Catholics defend the practice of sodomy in the militarily.

[Jesus_lol]

if you wanted to get a bit weird, if you gathered up all the people in the world who engage in sodomy, i bet the vast majority of them would be heterosexuals.


for every gay "sodomite" kicked out of the military, there is probably 5 straight guys left who boast about doing the same thing with their girlfriends back home/random girls.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Jesus_lol