Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1280888231' post='2151815']

then the canadian army could walk through, kill the 3 soldiers who managed to beat the morality lie detector test, and then we get to have hawaii and alaska!
[/quote]
We'd deploy our Litter Defense 3000 and they would starve on the march whilst picking up the trash.

"Now we have to clean the whole town!"

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='11 August 2010 - 01:33 AM' timestamp='1281508423' post='2155667']
Call me crazy but what Stern said about those in military service was far more insulting. It painted with a wide brush, while Semper insulted only two people. Again call me crazy but in comparison, both are bad but one is worse.
[/quote]


It painted with a wide brush, with a brush and a pre-mixed palette provided by hundreds of military veteran authors. Here's an "insulting" letter undersigned by over 40 current and past military personnel. With ranks all the way up to a colonel, with some majors, captains, lieutenants, you name it. They all agreed with his points and conclusions.

Let me add one point to his letter: the military is sent by the commander in chief, along with other [i]politicians[/i] who have proven they have absolutely no respect for Christian, let alone Catholic morality, and have absolutely no understanding or respect for the Just War Doctrine.

~Sternhauser


[b] Letter to a Christian Young Man Regarding Joining the Military [/b]

[i]The following letter was sent to a Christian young man I know who was considering joining the military. He hasn't joined as of yet, and I hope and pray that he doesn't. I am posting this letter publicly in the hope that it might persuade some Christian young men I don't know from joining the military. This letter was published on February 13, 2009, on [url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance163.html"]LewRockwell.com[/url].At the end of the letter I included this appeal: [/i]

[i]If any readers are veterans, consider themselves to be Christians, agree with the sentiments expressed in this letter, and would be willing to let me append their name, branch, and rank to any future use of this letter, please contact me at lmvance@juno.com. The fact that you"served" and I didn't might be what is needed to help persuade some young man (or woman) to not join the military.[/i]

[i]The names appended to this letter are those of Christian veterans who contacted me. I have listed the ranks just as they were given to me. If you are a Christian veteran and wish to have your name added, please contact me with your name, branch, and rank and I will add your information. If I have posted your name in error, made a mistake of some kind, or you wish to have your name removed, please contact me and I will remove or correct your information.[/i]

[center]____________________[/center]
Dear ______:

I have been told that you are thinking about joining the military. I hope I am misinformed. I understand that you are having trouble finding a job, but think that, as a Christian young man, you are making a big mistake if you join today's military.

First of all, you were raised in a Christian home and went to Christian schools your whole life. You will be needlessly exposed to much wickedness in the military. You will unnecessarily face temptations that you have never been exposed to. Why put yourself in this position? It is a fact that there is a network of brothels around the world to service U.S. troops stationed overseas. I know that you are a clean young man and have a girlfriend, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that you can remain clean in the military. Because I write on war and military issues, I have scores of veterans,Christian and otherwise, who have written me that will back up everything I am saying.

Second, it is one thing to join the military out of a sense of patriotism, but how does joining the military for financial reasons make you any different than a mercenary? I know that sounds harsh, but would you consider joining the military if you had a good job right now?

Third, the senseless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have no end in sight. There is no guarantee that you will not be sent to Iraq,Afghanistan, or some other God-forsaken place where you could be in danger of losing life or limb. And for what?

Fourth, you can't trust military recruiters. Like a car salesman, they are trying to make their monthly quota. They have been caught on tape lying to young men, even telling them that no troops were being sent to Iraq anymore.

Fifth, I know that you have a very low opinion of the new president, Barack Obama. I share your opinion completely. As a member of the military, Obama would be your commander in chief. You could be sent anywhere to fight for Obama. Are you willing to fight and possibly die because Obama thinks it necessary to send American troops into some other war?

Sixth, in the military, you will be expected to blindly follow the orders of your officers. Independent thought is not tolerated. Please consider the words of U.S. Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler(1881–1940), a two-time Congressional Medal of Honor winner: "Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service." Major General Butler became disillusioned with military service and wrote a famous book called [i]War Is a Racket[/i] in which he said: "War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope.It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."

Seventh, the purpose of the U.S. military is to defend America. But not only is the military not being used in defense of the country,it is being used to guard the borders, patrol the coasts, and defend the shores of other countries. The purpose of the military has been perverted by the interventionist foreign policy of the United States. There are American troops stationed in 147 countries and 10 territories. I know this for a fact because I have researched this in official Department of Defense documents and written about it on many occasions. The current use of the military is contrary to the American Founding Fathers' policy of nonintervention in the affairs of other countries.

Eighth, joining the military may have an adverse effect on your future family. I know that you have a girlfriend that you are very serious about. You should know that the breakup of marriages and relationships because of soldiers being deployed to Iraq and elsewhere is epidemic. Multiple duty tours and increased deployment terms are the death knell for stable families.What makes you think that the military will never send you away from your family for an extended period of time? You know that the possibility exists, so why gamble with your family? And then, as if being away from your family wasn't bad enough on you and them, some soldiers come home with such physical and/or mental problems that they are unable to return to civilian life. Debt, doctors,and divorce lawyers soon consume their finances.

Ninth, joining the military means that you may be put into a position where you will have to kill or be killed. What guarantee do you have that you will be in a non-combat role? Can you in good conscience pull the trigger against any "enemy" that the U.S. government sends you thousands of miles away to kill?

And finally, you would have problems even if you went into the military as a chaplain. Taxpayer-supported chaplains have to serve two masters: God and the state. Compromise is inevitable. He that pays the piper calls the tune. To become a chaplain in the U.S. military, one must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from an organization approved by the Pentagon as an Endorsing Ecclesiastical Organization. According to the chaplain requirements,one of the things that the endorsement should certify is that a military chaplain should be "sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army." I know that you are a conservative Christian and are averse to compromising your religious convictions. You will,however, be expected to do just that. As a chaplain, you would be expected to ask God to bless the actions of U.S. troops even if they were fighting in an unjust war. Can you in good conscience do this?

Please remember that if you join the military, there is no getting out until your enlistment period is up. I hope and pray that you don't make the mistake of joining.

In Christ Jesus our Savior,

Laurence Vance

[center]____________________[/center]
Arnold, Chester; Marines, Sergeant
Babb, Paul; Army, Specialist E-4
Barletta, Don; Army, Sergeant E-5
Barnett, Gary; Army, PFC
Beadle, Mark; Marines, Corporal
Berndt, Andrew; Marines, Sergeant
Bernier, Stephen; Air Force, SSGT
Biega, Bill; Army, Specialist E-6
Boyett, Joseph; Air Force, Colonel
Brunner, Robert; Army, Sergeant E-5
Cannon, Bruce; Navy, Electrician's Mate E-3
Carroll, Mark; Marines, Enlisted
Carroll, Jeffrey; Army, Specialist E-4
Case, Tim; Army, CW3
Cheney, David; Navy, FTG3
Cloyd, Jeff; Navy, Machinists Mate 3rd Class
Cole, William; Marines, Corporal
Cook, Leonard; Marines, Sergeant
Davis, Chad; Navy, YN2
Detzner, Bill; Army, Specialist Four
Dohoney, Nathan; Army, Sergeant
Ely, Jack; Navy,
Evans, Scott; Navy, Chief Petty Officer
Forrester, Keith; Army, Specialist
Gaddy, Michael; Army, Command Sergeant Major
Glaser, James; Marines, Sergeant
Golubski, Dianne; Air Force, Sergeant
Golubski, Frank; Air Force, Senior Airman
Hagerty, Patrick; Marines, Corporal
Haines, David; Air Force, Tsgt E-6
Hamby, Randy; Air Force, Ssgt E-5
Holson, James; Army, Military Police Corps
Janness, Mark; Army, Specialist 4th Class
Jenkins, Ed; Navy, Builder 2nd Class E-5
Johnson, Angela; Army, E-2
Johnson, Charles; Navy, RM3
Jones, Jeffrey; Army, Specialist E-4
Kliesen, James; Army, Spec 5
Knapp, Fred; Marines, Enlisted
Knecht, David; Army, Captain
Linnebur, Harold; Marines, Corporal
Ludwig, Mike; Army, SPC5
Marshall, Eric; Air Force, Senior Airman
Martin, Philip; Marines, Corporal
McCarthy, Thomas; Army, Specialist E-4
McCauley, Vincent; Marines, E-3
Metzger, William; Army Reserve, Chief Warrant Officer 3
Miller, Andrew; Air Force, Captain
Moe, Leon; Army, Specialist 5th Class
Moore, James; Army, Tech Sergeant
Mullen, Linda; Marines, Sergeant
Norris, Gerald; Air Force, Sergeant
O'Brien, Sean; Navy, Machinist Mate E-5
Page, Lauren; Air Force, Master Sergeant
Pearson, James; Army, Captain
Peddicord, David; Air Force, Sergeant
Polomny, John; Navy, Electricians Mate 2nd Class
Potter, Eric; Air Force, Captain
Reith, Mike; Air Force, Major
Rice, J.D.; Air Force, Sergeant
Rodriquez, Craig, Marines, Corporal
Rorie-Baety, Walt; Marines, Sergeant
Ross, Michael; Marines, Corporal
Ruppert, William; Navy, Electricians Mate 3rd class
Russell, Jim; Army, Specialist 4th Class
Ryken, Daniel; Army, Sergeant
Sacco, Ed; Army, Band
Schmatz, David; Army, Sergeant
Schuberg, Mark; Navy, Lieutenant
Schoolfield, Jim; Navy, 2nd Class Petty Officer
Snivley, William; Army Reserve, E-6
Southorn, Jason; Army, Sergeant E-5
Stevens, Tim; Navy, Quarter Master 3rd Class
Stimeling, Brittin; Army, Specialist E-4
Stoppelbein, Joseph; Army, Captain
Sweigart, Steve; Marines, Sergeant
Tuuri, Michael; Navy, Electronics Technician Radar 2nd Class E-5
Venaglia, John; Army, Major
Vied, Joshua; Marines, Machine Gunner
Walters, David; Marines, Captain
Welling, Richard; Army, Major
Weltman, Craig; Coast Guard, Lieutenant
Whitfield, George; Marines, Corporal
Wigton, Richard; Marines, Corporal
Wilson, Greg; Marines, Captain
Woodard, Brian, Air Force, Sr. Airman

[url="http://www.vancepublications.com/letter_to_young_man.htm"]http://www.vancepubl...o_young_man.htm[/url]

Edited August 11, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 August 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1281561786' post='2156113']
It painted with a wide brush, with a brush and a pre-mixed palette provided by hundreds of military veteran authors. Here's an "insulting" letter undersigned by over 40 current and past military personnel. With ranks all the way up to a colonel, with some majors, captains, lieutenants, you name it. They all agreed with his points and conclusions.

Let me add one point to his letter: the military is sent by the commander in chief, along with other [i]politicians[/i] who have proven they have absolutely no respect for Christian, let alone Catholic morality, and have absolutely no understanding or respect for the Just War Doctrine.

~Sternhauser


[b] Letter to a Christian Young Man Regarding Joining the Military [/b]

[i]The following letter was sent to a Christian young man I know who was considering joining the military. He hasn't joined as of yet, and I hope and pray that he doesn't. I am posting this letter publicly in the hope that it might persuade some Christian young men I don't know from joining the military. This letter was published on February 13, 2009, on [url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance163.html"]LewRockwell.com[/url].At the end of the letter I included this appeal: [/i]

[i]If any readers are veterans, consider themselves to be Christians, agree with the sentiments expressed in this letter, and would be willing to let me append their name, branch, and rank to any future use of this letter, please contact me at lmvance@juno.com. The fact that you"served" and I didn't might be what is needed to help persuade some young man (or woman) to not join the military.[/i]

[i]The names appended to this letter are those of Christian veterans who contacted me. I have listed the ranks just as they were given to me. If you are a Christian veteran and wish to have your name added, please contact me with your name, branch, and rank and I will add your information. If I have posted your name in error, made a mistake of some kind, or you wish to have your name removed, please contact me and I will remove or correct your information.[/i]

[center]____________________[/center]
Dear ______:

I have been told that you are thinking about joining the military. I hope I am misinformed. I understand that you are having trouble finding a job, but think that, as a Christian young man, you are making a big mistake if you join today's military.

First of all, you were raised in a Christian home and went to Christian schools your whole life. You will be needlessly exposed to much wickedness in the military. You will unnecessarily face temptations that you have never been exposed to. Why put yourself in this position? It is a fact that there is a network of brothels around the world to service U.S. troops stationed overseas. I know that you are a clean young man and have a girlfriend, but don't deceive yourself into thinking that you can remain clean in the military. Because I write on war and military issues, I have scores of veterans,Christian and otherwise, who have written me that will back up everything I am saying.

Second, it is one thing to join the military out of a sense of patriotism, but how does joining the military for financial reasons make you any different than a mercenary? I know that sounds harsh, but would you consider joining the military if you had a good job right now?

Third, the senseless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have no end in sight. There is no guarantee that you will not be sent to Iraq,Afghanistan, or some other God-forsaken place where you could be in danger of losing life or limb. And for what?

Fourth, you can't trust military recruiters. Like a car salesman, they are trying to make their monthly quota. They have been caught on tape lying to young men, even telling them that no troops were being sent to Iraq anymore.

Fifth, I know that you have a very low opinion of the new president, Barack Obama. I share your opinion completely. As a member of the military, Obama would be your commander in chief. You could be sent anywhere to fight for Obama. Are you willing to fight and possibly die because Obama thinks it necessary to send American troops into some other war?

Sixth, in the military, you will be expected to blindly follow the orders of your officers. Independent thought is not tolerated. Please consider the words of U.S. Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler(1881–1940), a two-time Congressional Medal of Honor winner: "Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service." Major General Butler became disillusioned with military service and wrote a famous book called [i]War Is a Racket[/i] in which he said: "War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope.It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."

Seventh, the purpose of the U.S. military is to defend America. But not only is the military not being used in defense of the country,it is being used to guard the borders, patrol the coasts, and defend the shores of other countries. The purpose of the military has been perverted by the interventionist foreign policy of the United States. There are American troops stationed in 147 countries and 10 territories. I know this for a fact because I have researched this in official Department of Defense documents and written about it on many occasions. The current use of the military is contrary to the American Founding Fathers' policy of nonintervention in the affairs of other countries.

Eighth, joining the military may have an adverse effect on your future family. I know that you have a girlfriend that you are very serious about. You should know that the breakup of marriages and relationships because of soldiers being deployed to Iraq and elsewhere is epidemic. Multiple duty tours and increased deployment terms are the death knell for stable families.What makes you think that the military will never send you away from your family for an extended period of time? You know that the possibility exists, so why gamble with your family? And then, as if being away from your family wasn't bad enough on you and them, some soldiers come home with such physical and/or mental problems that they are unable to return to civilian life. Debt, doctors,and divorce lawyers soon consume their finances.

Ninth, joining the military means that you may be put into a position where you will have to kill or be killed. What guarantee do you have that you will be in a non-combat role? Can you in good conscience pull the trigger against any "enemy" that the U.S. government sends you thousands of miles away to kill?

And finally, you would have problems even if you went into the military as a chaplain. Taxpayer-supported chaplains have to serve two masters: God and the state. Compromise is inevitable. He that pays the piper calls the tune. To become a chaplain in the U.S. military, one must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from an organization approved by the Pentagon as an Endorsing Ecclesiastical Organization. According to the chaplain requirements,one of the things that the endorsement should certify is that a military chaplain should be "sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army." I know that you are a conservative Christian and are averse to compromising your religious convictions. You will,however, be expected to do just that. As a chaplain, you would be expected to ask God to bless the actions of U.S. troops even if they were fighting in an unjust war. Can you in good conscience do this?

Please remember that if you join the military, there is no getting out until your enlistment period is up. I hope and pray that you don't make the mistake of joining.

In Christ Jesus our Savior,

Laurence Vance

[center]____________________[/center]
Arnold, Chester; Marines, Sergeant
Babb, Paul; Army, Specialist E-4
Barletta, Don; Army, Sergeant E-5
Barnett, Gary; Army, PFC
Beadle, Mark; Marines, Corporal
Berndt, Andrew; Marines, Sergeant
Bernier, Stephen; Air Force, SSGT
Biega, Bill; Army, Specialist E-6
Boyett, Joseph; Air Force, Colonel
Brunner, Robert; Army, Sergeant E-5
Cannon, Bruce; Navy, Electrician's Mate E-3
Carroll, Mark; Marines, Enlisted
Carroll, Jeffrey; Army, Specialist E-4
Case, Tim; Army, CW3
Cheney, David; Navy, FTG3
Cloyd, Jeff; Navy, Machinists Mate 3rd Class
Cole, William; Marines, Corporal
Cook, Leonard; Marines, Sergeant
Davis, Chad; Navy, YN2
Detzner, Bill; Army, Specialist Four
Dohoney, Nathan; Army, Sergeant
Ely, Jack; Navy,
Evans, Scott; Navy, Chief Petty Officer
Forrester, Keith; Army, Specialist
Gaddy, Michael; Army, Command Sergeant Major
Glaser, James; Marines, Sergeant
Golubski, Dianne; Air Force, Sergeant
Golubski, Frank; Air Force, Senior Airman
Hagerty, Patrick; Marines, Corporal
Haines, David; Air Force, Tsgt E-6
Hamby, Randy; Air Force, Ssgt E-5
Holson, James; Army, Military Police Corps
Janness, Mark; Army, Specialist 4th Class
Jenkins, Ed; Navy, Builder 2nd Class E-5
Johnson, Angela; Army, E-2
Johnson, Charles; Navy, RM3
Jones, Jeffrey; Army, Specialist E-4
Kliesen, James; Army, Spec 5
Knapp, Fred; Marines, Enlisted
Knecht, David; Army, Captain
Linnebur, Harold; Marines, Corporal
Ludwig, Mike; Army, SPC5
Marshall, Eric; Air Force, Senior Airman
Martin, Philip; Marines, Corporal
McCarthy, Thomas; Army, Specialist E-4
McCauley, Vincent; Marines, E-3
Metzger, William; Army Reserve, Chief Warrant Officer 3
Miller, Andrew; Air Force, Captain
Moe, Leon; Army, Specialist 5th Class
Moore, James; Army, Tech Sergeant
Mullen, Linda; Marines, Sergeant
Norris, Gerald; Air Force, Sergeant
O'Brien, Sean; Navy, Machinist Mate E-5
Page, Lauren; Air Force, Master Sergeant
Pearson, James; Army, Captain
Peddicord, David; Air Force, Sergeant
Polomny, John; Navy, Electricians Mate 2nd Class
Potter, Eric; Air Force, Captain
Reith, Mike; Air Force, Major
Rice, J.D.; Air Force, Sergeant
Rodriquez, Craig, Marines, Corporal
Rorie-Baety, Walt; Marines, Sergeant
Ross, Michael; Marines, Corporal
Ruppert, William; Navy, Electricians Mate 3rd class
Russell, Jim; Army, Specialist 4th Class
Ryken, Daniel; Army, Sergeant
Sacco, Ed; Army, Band
Schmatz, David; Army, Sergeant
Schuberg, Mark; Navy, Lieutenant
Schoolfield, Jim; Navy, 2nd Class Petty Officer
Snivley, William; Army Reserve, E-6
Southorn, Jason; Army, Sergeant E-5
Stevens, Tim; Navy, Quarter Master 3rd Class
Stimeling, Brittin; Army, Specialist E-4
Stoppelbein, Joseph; Army, Captain
Sweigart, Steve; Marines, Sergeant
Tuuri, Michael; Navy, Electronics Technician Radar 2nd Class E-5
Venaglia, John; Army, Major
Vied, Joshua; Marines, Machine Gunner
Walters, David; Marines, Captain
Welling, Richard; Army, Major
Weltman, Craig; Coast Guard, Lieutenant
Whitfield, George; Marines, Corporal
Wigton, Richard; Marines, Corporal
Wilson, Greg; Marines, Captain
Woodard, Brian, Air Force, Sr. Airman

[url="http://www.vancepublications.com/letter_to_young_man.htm"]http://www.vancepubl...o_young_man.htm[/url]
[/quote]
[img]http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tldr_trollcat.JPG[/img]

[Mark of the Cross]

Stern has a point albeit a very small one, not referring to his head here. I met some people who stated that they joined the army because they wanted to kill a 'Noggy.' and wished someone would start some more wars. But these people like paedophile priests are a very minute representation of the military. To many it is just an occupation that they can cope with, some even enjoy the knight in shining armour aspect with the idea of being defenders of the innocent.
Many people also seem to forget that Homosexuality is an affliction. For many it is a cross they have to bear. Their accusers seem to forget that it is easy to criticise someone else's affliction when you don't suffer it yourself, but much harder to deal with your own.
Why people have so much difficulty with balance is beyond me, it's a wonder they don't walk around in circles.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='11 August 2010 - 02:00 AM' timestamp='1281502840' post='2155648']
Because he's an [mod]personal attack - MIKolbe[/mod].[b] It's like arguing with Bill O'Reilly, you can dispute him all you want but it's not going to change his mind no matter how absurdly wrong he is, you're just wasting his time.[/b]

[i]Good to know some emo kid is licking up all his scraps though.[/i]
[/quote]

The statement in bold sounds oddly ironic.

And that last statement in italics, sounds awfully presumptuous, is it wrong that I agree with him and wish to support him since he often stands alone on the forum?

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='11 August 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1281566582' post='2156145']
And that last statement in italics, sounds awfully presumptuous, is it wrong that I agree with him and wish to support him since he often stands alone on the forum?
[/quote]
So you're admitting you're emo?

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Winchester' date='11 August 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1281567031' post='2156147']
So you're admitting you're emo?
[/quote]

I was (trying) to be the better man and ignore that statement (sleight) on my person.

Thanks for mentioning it anyway Winne.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 August 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1281567031' post='2156147']
So you're admitting you're emo?
[/quote]

[img]http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/hay-be-nice-emokitteh-is-sensitive.jpg[/img]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='11 August 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1281568914' post='2156166']
I was (trying) to be the better man and ignore that statement (sleight) on my person.

Thanks for mentioning it anyway Winne.
[/quote]

The Penciled One,

If he wants to mock the words and [url="http://www.h-net.org/%7Ehst306/documents/indust.html"]warning [/url]of 5-Star General Dwight D. Eisenhower in his 1961 farewell address, let him go for it.

"Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. [Sternhauser's Note: [i][b]War[/b] establishment, Ike. You cannot manufacture defense. Defense from actual external threats is one reason one can engage in war. It is seldom the reason States engage in war.[/i]] We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. [[i]Sternhauser's note: Not all of us, Dwight, just like not all of us see the need for torture, or deliberately slaughtering entire cities of civilians, like you did.[/i]] Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

Well meaning, perhaps. But naive. He might as well have said, "When you create an avalanche, you ought to make sure that it doesn't exponentially grow in size, [i]taking[/i] and [i]assimilating[/i] all the materials in its surrounding environment in order to increase its own size and girth, or else the avalanche will eventually crush and destroy everything in its path." Yeah, Ike. We'll keep a real close eye on that avalanche we create, and make sure it doesn't get too big.

James Madison was right. "The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home."

~Sternhauser

Edited August 11, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 August 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1281570659' post='2156179']


This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience.
[/quote]
It probably occured after world war 2 when Japan made an unprovoked attack and if not for the might of Americas military may have succeeded in ruling the world in a barbaric and cruel manner. Since then the US has been the world police and many a good man has paid the ultimate price. Without the US the terrorists could spread their evil much further than they already have. I'm an Australian but I say God bless America!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='11 August 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1281570659' post='2156179']
The Penciled One,

If he wants to mock the words and [url="http://www.h-net.org/%7Ehst306/documents/indust.html"]warning [/url]of 5-Star General Dwight D. Eisenhower in his 1961 farewell address, let him go for it.

"Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. [Sternhauser's Note: [i][b]War[/b] establishment, Ike. You cannot manufacture defense. Defense from actual external threats is one reason one can engage in war. It is seldom the reason States engage in war.[/i]] We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. [[i]Sternhauser's note: Not all of us, Dwight, just like not all of us see the need for torture, or deliberately slaughtering entire cities of civilians, like you did.[/i]] Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

Well meaning, perhaps. But naive. He might as well have said, "When you create an avalanche, you ought to make sure that it doesn't exponentially grow in size, [i]taking[/i] and [i]assimilating[/i] all the materials in its surrounding environment in order to increase its own size and girth, or else the avalanche will eventually crush and destroy everything in its path." Yeah, Ike. We'll keep a real close eye on that avalanche we create, and make sure it doesn't get too big.

James Madison was right. "The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

No, no, no. I'm mocking you. Sorry for teh confusion. Anyway, I have six stars. I am a Six Star SuperGeneral in the Army of Winchester the Mighty.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='11 August 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1281568914' post='2156166']
the darkling darkness
is bloody with shadows of pain
my heart is a morose chasm of dim hopes
in the valley of sad despair
wither love?
wither hope?
whithered...

tears[/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='apparently' date='10 August 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1281482465' post='2155521']

Stalin, get real Stalin???????????????????????????????????????

Odd, that some people equate the Army gay ban on Catholics. As far as I know Catholic doctrine has little to do with the official US Army rules and regulations. There is however a large numbers of practicing Catholics among the ranks of our military services, family men and woman with strong moral standards and principles…

The army is all volunteer, the gay issues are well know and I hardly believe that any young (adult) recruit would be unaware of the standards before signing up.
[/quote]
Stalin what?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 August 2010 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1281549964' post='2155866']
You know, them darned right-wing conservatives who oppose homosexuality are . . . COMMIES!

(Geez, and the Left thinks McCarthy was crazy!)[/quote]

You are a master of building cheep strawmen and then knocking them down quite artfully. I would enjoy hearing your thoughts a lot more if you were more inclined to engage with the actual arguments you dispute rather than picking the cheep and easy route.

If you want to actually engage the facts I presented, then I would welcome it. I would enjoy having a substantive discussion with you.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Hassan